The Evolution of Network Design with Daren Fulwell and Rick Bauer – ZNDP 081

ZNDP 081: The Evolution of Network Design with Daren Fulwell and Rick Bauer

Zig Zsiga: [0:00] The evolution of network design with Daren fulwell & Rick Power episode 81.

Zig Zsiga: [0:08] In this podcast episode we take a trip back in time,

Back to the Future Let's be like Marty McFly and jump into our DeLorean are time-traveling car joining me on this journey through time,

are my good friends and fellow CCDE's Darren Fulwell and Rick Bauer these two experts are going to help me show the evolution of network design over the last 20 plus years let's go!

Zig Zsiga: Welcome back my friend's nerds geeks and Ziglets out there we have another episode of the Zigbits network design podcast where Zigabytes are faster than gigabytes, we strive to provide real-world context around technology!

Zig Zsiga: What's up everybody well I said what's up everybody, up everybody I hope everyone is doing great! Zig Zsiga here and welcome to episode 81 of the Zigbits Network Design Podcast my name is Zig Zsiga once again I'm here to help you with network engineering, network design, and Network architectures and today we are highlighting the evolution yep I said it the evolution of network design!

Zig Zsiga: Our guests today are Daren Fulwell & Rick Bauer my fellow CCDE and network design experts!

Zig Zsiga: Hey Rick and Darren, thanks to both of you for joining the show today I sincerely appreciate it how are you guys doing today let's start with Rick how are you doing today buddy?

Daren & Rick: [1:32] I'm awesome and it's you know it's dumping snow here in New Jersey we got about probably going to end up with about close at three feet.

Zig Zsiga: [1:40] Whoa I got about a foot I got about a foot and a half here so New York.

Daren & Rick: [1:44] Yeah it's going pretty good still going and unfortunately, the only thing that I have regret-wise is that we're in a Vermont house and.

I didn't stay I didn't bring my work laptop so I couldn't stay and I'd be getting the goods right now.

Zig Zsiga: [2:00] Yeah man yeah.

Daren & Rick: [2:01] But our talking to you guys so it's even better.

Zig Zsiga: [2:03] That's a great way to start the day I.

Daren & Rick: [2:05] Good trade-off right.

Zig Zsiga: [2:07] How about you Darren how you doing buddy.

Daren & Rick: [2:08] Yeah coats good and nowhere near as much snow in fact what we did have a smattering overnight and there's a little bit left on the car but it's gone it's this is February in Manchester this is what it's like.

Zig Zsiga: [2:23] Nice so no real snow there then we introduced maybe if that.

Daren & Rick: [2:25] Price not a scratch.

The north of England for you sir.

Zig Zsiga: [2:32] Yes I just got done snow blowing my driveway and everything took about 45 minutes we got about a foot and a half so far.

We're gonna get more later visits an all-day thing but hey guys thanks for joining hey trick I think I'll turn it over to you first can you just give a kind of an intro about who you are what you do the kind of the top items that kind of say Who You Are.

Daren & Rick: [2:52] Sure so Rick Bauer I'm a TSA in EN Enterprise networking for Cisco I've been there about.

Coming up on a year so my work and over for sure he's coming up in April in the midst of the pandemic I switched jobs so that's a you know I don't know if that's a testament to things or what but.

Prior to that I was with SP Global as the head of Global Network architecture.

And before that Partners government large Enterprise retail I'm an old ins sir from back in the 90s.

Um and you know it's think as we say networking,

in this injury is cyclical I started out as a programmer and I am probably going to end my career as a programmer,

so pretty cool ccie ççde everything in between so I mean that's kind of it.

Zig Zsiga: [3:59] So so for the people that I can't see us right we're on video just for cues and whatnot you have a definite shirt on so do you have the dead nut certifications then I know you talked about CCIE.

Daren & Rick: [4:08] Yeah yeah so yep so I am up to the specialist level right now so I've done associate and Iain Automation and I am currently working on,

Job Corps the Big Bear genocide on yeah so I've got a goal for March I want to be done and we've got an internal thing going with.

You know my my reporting chain at Cisco so there's some some good incentive to do that so by end of end of quarter so.

Zig Zsiga: [4:43] Nice nice hey well thanks for joining I appreciate it as always work everyone finds you on the interwebs if they want to find you and you know can you do the conversion.

Daren & Rick: [4:51] Oh gee I'm not really good at this Social Media stuff.

Zig Zsiga: [4:55] So we can't find you your ghost your hit it.

Daren & Rick: [4:57] Yeah they I mean they can I mean I'm on I think I'm on Twitter and.

Zig Zsiga: [5:01] All right well I'll make it easy I will put in the show notes guys all right so I'll put it in the show notes for you we're all the links and where they can find you.

Daren & Rick: [5:09] But mostly it at six right so and it's X LinkedIn and I guess Twitter I'm at ccie 948 to so.

Zig Zsiga: [5:20] Awesome there you go we can find you now you're not a ghost anymore.

Daren & Rick: [5:22] Yeah you can find me I'm lurking around.

Zig Zsiga: [5:25] Yeah well thanks again for joining I'm gonna tear over to Darren Darren you know you're not your friend of the show you've been on a number of times but let's just in case people don't know who you are buddy give a quick intro.

Daren & Rick: [5:37] Maya Joe pales into insignificance compared to what you've just experienced but basically what he said.

Scale it down that was a 75% and that's me right so,

please guy CCD a definite associate but I haven't got any further than that yet I yeah I've the same kind of thing done the network engineering do on the Consulting done the,

architecture and design I'm currently at this one I think I might just be able to win on because my job title is currently Network automation evangelist.

I thank you I think I'll just retire on that.

Zig Zsiga: [6:18] Yeah you're done call it in hang in the towel.

Daren & Rick: [6:21] You need one of those you need to be on like TV and have like jealous the Church of networking.

Zig Zsiga: [6:30] Their own their own TV show and there you go you have a different seasons.

Well thanks again for joining Darren is always hey one last quote where can people find you as always on the interwebs.

Daren & Rick: [6:40] Yeah I'm at there in fulwell on Twitter and on LinkedIn and as we mentioned in it 6 I mean we haven't we kind of brushed over that a little bit but you know this was something that Rick and I and

Derek and the guys from the CCI advisory Council started gosh two years ago now nearly where we were talking about how to adjust and change to this new way of

building operating networks really the programmability

the automation all that good stuff and it's really our journey but also hopefully taking people with us right right that was.

Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [7:25] So I'll have links to in it six as well so everyone can follow in at six and find out who they are what they are what they do and what it's all about.

And real quick I know if I want to caught a couple things right so I don't have the deadness associate,

certification so these guys do and these guys are so far ahead and I don't have it yet I'm working on it I started it so I'm working on it I'll get there but I want to say this other thing is that you have three,

not one not two but three CCD he's on this podcast episode this morning or this day whatever day you're listening to it so that's design in a nutshell.

Daren & Rick: [8:01] That doesn't happen very often right now there's not well there's not many of us so we just treat us treats a good and a bad thing I mean for the cert but you know I don't know we'll get that.

Zig Zsiga: [8:11] Yeah where we get there right like I mean Darren and I were part of the webinar Series where we had what four CDs on the webinar I think,

you know so I mean we're trying to get more people in the CCD Community together not that was the topic of the show but we're going to get bring people together.

Daren & Rick: [8:27] The new version which is which is end of the year now that we're in 2021 so it's the end of this year that the new version comes comes to fruition.

Well yeah let's let's hope that you know that that helps because I think you know that that's something that we,

we've talked about a lot records and there's is the fact that the DEA

has so much I don't know it's such a great testing experience there's so much quality in the actual search itself it's just not been white as widely accepted as we'd hope and maybe maybe now's the time to change that,

well you and I have beating that drum for years now you know the other another interesting fact here is the three of us,

I've also been deeply involved in ccie or ççde exam development and program development over the years as well so you know that's another interesting fact that you know,

we kind of have our fingers in it you know I am.

I am an evangelist of the sir I believe there's tremendous value in it I think that you know.

[9:40] It's hard which is great,

and it you know it should be ccie should be hard I mean any means expert right so you know I don't think that should deter people I,

you know I wish that maybe it was positioned in marketed better and to give it more value but.

You know that is what it is hopefully in in the new version that will in the new regime things will start to change but,

you know the last thing I want to see is it become just another IE and kind of meld in together I believe there's tremendous value and having it as its own separate track yeah it's my Singleton

yeah yeah no absolutely as distinctive is it's important that we keep it and and for me the testing experience.

Wasn't was well it reflects on your experience as a whole into your approach and all those good things they think that we always talk about you know the mindset and everything,

the point is that,

unless you've got those things you aren't going to do as well as you hope and so you need to change your mindset to to work to it it's you can't just learn this stuff right you have to live it and breathe it which is why we're see we've started already.

[11:01] Study group one of the study groups work why the whole discussion groups work and everything in terms of preparation for the day it's a whole different kettle of fish and it's awesome is all I can tell you my,

success wouldn't have been I wouldn't have achieved it I don't think if I didn't have the study partner that I have my buddy Sean Garrett who's.

He's brilliant and you know the two of us together just worked at it and just chipped away and just you know dissected it and looked at everything you know when you talk about beating that horse man it's like well,

why do you do multicast or,

you know this or that or the other thing and to be able to chip it away and break it down into well you know this this than this why and then wrap that business piece around it and it you know and it starts to make sense.

But yeah it's it it's a it's a process in and of itself I mean.

Zig Zsiga: [12:01] Yeah I think it's extremely important right and we talked about the CCD for a minute here and maybe we can get to the topic at a minute of what we're going to talk about which I think fits you know we're talking about Evolution Network design and I think the CST itself kind of

shows you how important Network design is nowadays,

I think the CCD is extremely imperative I think people should adopt it I think should it be should be everyone should be getting it the the process I think that people just don't know how to think about Network design,

we're not trained we're not taught there I mean Rick and I we talked about maybe doing a show on should there be,

a degree for Network design like some sort of in Industry standard here's the degree plan so you can learn how to design,

appropriately and how you think it's all about your mindset but I'm going to go on my own ramble here right like that's that's where I'm at like I like all the changes for the most part I'm cool with that I think it's going to drive more people to the de.

I wish it was a little I wish it was a little elevated higher than the CCI is personally like I think I think it I think it should be,

not at the same rung at the CCI is and that's how it's kind of marketed so I think to your point wreck it should be maybe better marketed and better.

Pushed out there an adopted and Etc but I mean I'm a huge proponent I'm very passionate about the I think we all are right.

Daren & Rick: [13:22] I think anybody who has it where anybody who is started to tackle it just because again I mean it is such a you know I spent way more time on De than I did on IE routes which,

100% I mean more effort more brain power just everything you know and it wasn't because I didn't have the skills it was because,

you know you've got to reshape your mind from thinking operationally to thinking you know more strategic and you know and then what are the,

the impact from the business that drive a design and you know I think that's something where we as Engineers we be.

[14:06] We built these beautiful Creations over the years and they're Artful there so Artful and beautiful.

But they're fragile man because there's not a lot of structure and governance to them and I think we can get a lot better and I think that's where de really kind of fits in.

It's about it's about building something that's operable

yeah supportable that you can you can actually make sure

does achieve what you're trying to trying to achieve but also you can maintain it and you don't have to get a specialist in to deal with it all the time and all of those sorts of good things right it's so much more than.

Oh I understand that technology and understand that technology and understand that technology and this is why I choose that one over that audience so much more than that and that for me was the difference that was absolutely difference because you can't,

you can't book study.

[15:06] In really you can't book study this thing it's this you know this you can learn the Technologies and that's fine but it's about changing the way you think and that and

and some people are already wired that way right some some Network Architects are already wired that way and these guys will just walk through this process and get this because,

that's the way you are there are other people who are wired as a as a iie,

food learns things by row and they learn things by reading and whatever and they may never get the da because they can't shift that mindset and that's the thing is,

this is why I think why experience really plays into this because if you've got that role already,

and you're doing that you've already had to learn to compromise and you have to learn about trade-offs and you had to learn about about how to carry yourself in those sorts of situations,

you're going to get a better result it's as simple as that the two things that really helped me a lot with that that business practitioner.

[16:07] Of course work that we had to do in the partners that was something that really kind of teed me up for it and I did that in like 2010 and.

That kind of changed my mindset from.

You know and my role where I was out of the time kind of did that too and you know to your one point Darren it's called operational operational sustainability,

and if you don't build networks to for that.

They're no good if you can't if you can't support it it's no good if it's too complex to figure out at 3 a.m. you failed the rule I mean that you broke the three am rule in and you know nobody's going to be able to fix it when it breaks.

Zig Zsiga: [16:48] So I have this I have this actual real world situation where a team that I work with my team and I were building a route linking strategy for one of our customers

and it you know so our customer came in and said hey we need to be able to Route leak between vrs or whatever and like okay cool let's go in a lab so you know I got four

CC IES me as a CCD and we're in the lab we're like okay we got to hammer this out you know we come out of that two day three day process we got this

awesome awesome route leaking strategy that we love we're very passionate about it like this is going to be awesome and we presented to the customer here we didn't think that,

that customers not a ccie that customer is not even a ccnp.

The customers are CCNA and we use Technologies and features that like are at the CCI level he doesn't understand not as his fault right we designed it for someone that just can't manage it they can't maintain

so we had to go back to the board and be like okay we gotta we gotta we gotta make this a lot simpler like that's that's what right here they gotta be able to manage it so it's,

I think design and the CCD but not just the decouple from the CC I think Network design you have to weigh what you're doing with everything else like it's all,

total picture view it's not you know availability is more important or scalability is more important or Securities more important you want to say something during go ahead buddy.

Daren & Rick: [18:07] Now I was just going to say you're leading so neatly into.

All of the things that I need to talk to others through the episode anyway right because because really what we're saying is you know when I started doing this this stuff it was all about the CBDs and all about making sure that you've built things the way that.

The vendors who ever the vendor was in question,

I wanted you to build it so that you you did things the right way but the problem with that was you ended up with one two three four different networks all completely separate and all needing different,

support mechanisms and whatever in order to deliver them and so they were disjoint write your gaps that things fell down in between them.

[18:52] That's not good enough anymore we can't do that because because business needs the network far more now than it ever did before.

Because I mean and you only have to look at what's happened this year right without without what we do,

nothing could have happened you know in terms of getting all those people working remotely in terms of working from home but but also delivering new service,

to customers and all that stuff you just couldn't do it without a proper joined up Network strategy right and like this is why what we do is now and book.

We're a lot of customers struggled there was to efficiently roll that out right so all of these things are great but if you don't have a way to do them at scale.

You're going to you're going to run into these things you know the worst thing that we have in networking or an it as a whole is telling the business to wait,

sorry we can't do that for another year that's not good enough anymore you need to be able to,

you know at the whim of business because quite frankly that's who gives you your budget and that's who that's why you're in existence you're there to serve the business,

so you need to be able to provide them the tools and instrument ate everything that they need in order to,

provide the service to your customer whoever that might be so.

Zig Zsiga: [20:18] Exactly and I would add this I like to say this and I don't know if you guys are going to resonate with this or not but we talked about making it work scalable while I want to I want to emphasize it kind of,

flip that flip this topic on this idea we make the network scalable because we want to make the business flexible

if we don't have that capability to make the network scalable where it actually makes the business flexible so when the business comes to you for an ask and you go yeah yeah we can do that right now like we

it'll take five minutes or if you come they come to you and you're like that's going to take a year like there's no way like we just don't have the scalability or whatever I mean that's what we're talking about here and then

the second thing on that is that the Network's no longer a cost center like it's it can't be a cost center right the business the network is its.

It's becoming what I call an unstated requirement it's very similar to like building a house and getting Plumbing one running.

Daren & Rick: [21:10] Just give me some I was just going to say you're talking about utility really is what you're talking about functional requirement right you know so.

Zig Zsiga: [21:19] Go back 20 years ago it wasn't that right it was like it was nice to have it was like yeah maybe maybe I'll have a network of her some redundancy some high availability may be single points of failure across the board whatever right but now it's,

my application doesn't function I'm mad right my business is going down I'm losing money the impact the impact the why.

Is so big now.

Daren & Rick: [21:41] Yeah the business.

The business figured out that the tool that they need to use is the internet or access to that up through their of right so you know we're where the highway so,

you know and you know scale and flexibility you know be able to you know,

and I hate you know about agile and all of that but you know yeah we need to be agile we need to be able to respond in a reasonable amount of time and I mean that brings us to so many things we want to talk about you know from a programmatic point of view,

you know software is it management and things all that stuff is in.

[22:21] Crucial go ahead Darren so I know it's just going to tell you I mean just just going to back a step

we talked about scalability we're not just talking about scale up here of course we're talking scaled down as well or scale sideways or whatever right because because Cloud approach right exactly be able to contract is needed

it adds needed because I mean and again you know the last year only shows us just how things can change in the the drop of a hat right,

how many people when we're through all of this are going to be dumping their offices and how many people have scaled up,

you know working from home well how's that going to change when all this is changed.

It's flux right and it's changed that's the thing that we've it's the agility whatever scalability up down whichever direction that we need in order to get coached there's gotta be a way right to from a,

Financial point of view you know.

[23:16] I mean I have some customers that are 100% I want to I want everything is up X I want to pay monthly bill I want subscription base and I have other customers that are like,

yeah my the way my funding comes in you know this could be federal or state and local government right you know color money is important so I can't spend that money on.

Subscription it's got to be a capital expenditure so now like certain,

organizations are kind of shift into I want it all capex others are I Want It All op ex so you know there is no one-size-fits-all or one solution fits all so.

Yeah it's it's going to be continue to become interesting so that cloud model doesn't always fit for everybody.

But they want the same outcome right so how do you do that and turn it time operational model yes I'm operational model right for the agility.

You know whatever whatever other constraints that we need to fit in fit around yeah absolutely.

Zig Zsiga: [24:20] But that but that I think that's why I'll every networks different like I think that's why because he's constraints like you just mentioned budget like money like there's different,

different types of money different colors different catbacks for stop X and we're not going to dive into every little detail on that here but like there's implications to those words that were saying that really dictate how you would design a solution

and how you would Implement a solution right,

versus the opposite like capex Workshop X or if you have a high budget or a low budget I mean there's just very different implications there on how about Network design would be

how those design decision to be decided in all honesty yeah so let's I want to I'll go ahead there.

Daren & Rick: [25:05] So many ways to go from here.

Zig Zsiga: [25:07] So so there's a couple there's a couple things right we kind of talked about the CBDs and I would call that kind of a prescriptive,

architecture or a fixed apology right like that's that's it maybe that was 10 years ago I do I'm throwing out a time bucket I don't know if that's accurate right but like that's a fixed architecture what would you guys think.

Daren & Rick: [25:25] Yeah I mean I'd go a little bit further than that I mean you've the CDs were very much that sort of thing and just and a cvd is great as a as a reference and as a as an example.

Of a way to approach things but I think you've got you've got

another element of those fixed architectures as well haven't you you've got things like spine Leaf you've got things like particular operating systems

wanting to push or particular automation platforms and let's let's really push the boat out that the push you down a particular path,

in terms of how your topologies bell tower in terms of how you interact with with that Network and the can the constructs that you've got to play with and so,

you're fixed architectures are a lot more.

[26:14] There's so many different ones and they are all they are all different and yet they do have their own constraints wrapped around them right,

yeah but you know for purpose though you know if you take a Ci or,

or some fabric right SDA whatever right campus fabric data center fabric let's just generalize it enough right so you take both of them and they're building blocks because,

the flexibility comes in the overlay right so you have to have that dependable reliable scalable,

underlay infrastructure in order to do that now.

Goes back to what we were talking about earlier that creativity that takes a lot of creativity and I think a lot of Engineers bike that because they think,

you know you're taking something that I can create away from me you're taking my my hand this away from me.

[27:14] But the point is that you still have the ability to that creativity but if you can solve simple.

What big problems like.

Campus or user access and make that simple so that you don't have to spend a lot of time then you can create and spend your,

resources in time in developing cool things at a higher layer in the network you know you can,

you know work on cloud stuff or you know interconnects and things like that where you need to add that creativity or you know mergers divestitures but if those topologies are fixed,

and standard it's so much easier to do the other stuff above it.

[28:01] So I'm going to I'm going to come back to you on that one because because if you end up going down that path of having,

let's say in different and there's is bringing dredging up a terminology from the past but talk about places in the network right we'll talk about your data centers only talk about your camper so you talk about whatever if you've got.

These fixed apologies these lumps of network you you complexity then starts to come in the interactions between those right because that's

that's the trick then is okay I want to deploy I want to deploy a cause policy at from from my from my users who are on my wireless network to my applications which are out in my data center somewhere

how do I how do I build that policy,

when I've got four interaction surfaces between between different looks in order to deliver so it's rubbish you're right,

we've been doing that in service provider for a long time right the complexity comes at the edge and you're over built in the backbone right service provider,

I mean unless you're doing te special PE tunnels for a customer there's no Quality Service in the backbone and the p network.

[29:13] It's just a label switching at that point right so I mean that's you know

got your pocket dropper built in the middle so you don't have to worry about it right so I'm not saying that that's the be all at all but,

so those are the sorts of things that I mean you know you think about you think about oh gosh security policy you know secure way you want to be you know there's another one right so so.

[29:40] I'm not going to delve into specifics but but things like deploying access policy for users as they enter the network and how that can influence which witch,

workloads they can they can access in the cloud or something like that you've got all of those kinds of things to deal with,

and now you're not dealing with them as a whole network you're dealing with them,

every interaction between all of the Network's You're Building you know what I'm not saying it's the wrong thing I think the point is it's a change right and it's a shift from where we were and that's that's the point is you're not building.

Network that connects.

Uses right the way through a single Network that connects users right the way through to the servers that they access any mortal is carved up and it's structured so that you've got these blocks of fixed architecture.

But then there's the interactions that replace that you take in Simplicity in one place and adding complexity in the interactions between those those simpler blah,

but I was just going to say I mean you know,

as a rule you know if you choose standard based Solutions the.

Underlying hardware and manufacturer what have you can become abstracted to a certain sense and.

[31:05] You know I mean you jump you dare you jump way ahead right yeah I want to get to right,

so that user to application segmentation that that promise of that you know that's so far down the road you know many most customers that I see,

they're not ready their applications aren't ready for that segmentation in that true,

hearing of application design where there's the front end the Middle where the application the database that they're not built that way so they can't segment in the data center like that,

the users,

have so many applications that they use that it's it's impossible at this point to shrink that down into a common policy so you know the best you can do is you,

you start trying to play with some some macro segmentation at the edges of the network and then you know if you can you.

Maybe build those tunnels between them or.

Create important Edge points you know in created that way but you know when you're when you're picking that stuff it goes back to the design principles you know what.

What can my business stain what can my users to stain and and what do I have the tools in my toolbox do to get the job done.

So I mean this is evolutionary I mean it I mean it would be so cool I mean we I went through it with.

[32:33] The onset of covid and looking for remote access Solutions,

right you go zero trust and you go to take medication use guns do I trust you know it's you know the good thing is you have choices.

Zig Zsiga: [32:51] Zero trusses I thank for the record it is a thing so we probably should dive into that at some point just going to throw that out there zero trust architecture.

Daren & Rick: [32:58] What's that yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [33:02] I did do a show on this a few years ago a year ago or two a year and a half ago but.

Daren & Rick: [33:09] It's more than just the network for zero trust great this is this is this is always the problem with anything isn't it anything access,

we've been trying to solve security problems in in client PCS on in the network for years that's because because it was too hard to do it in the clients,

to get a unified view so so doing the network instead because it's all good,

now along comes there are trust with the idea of basically you want to you want to put that that trust into the application log you know logging uses into applications,

yeah,

we'll get that we will get that but I think what we'll end up with is will end up with applications will end up their networks doing a bit will end up with with the clients doing a bit and you know what we'll end up where we are now where we've,

lots of different things interacting because that's the way things go think about what we're doing.

You know if we're if we're building at the edges we're doing that that original security design when it was hard at the edge and soft and chewy in the middle right.

You know so now our edges are just in different places right so you've got an edge from user access to your backbone or in your data center to your backbone and you know you're kind of hard they're a little soft you could become.

[34:31] A little harder here by doing micro segmentation and again all this stuff there's in my opinion.

There's no light switch Motion in any of this stuff now no because I think these,

there's a lot of learning to go with this as well totally I think I think that the danger is you see all the this stuff about zero trust and zero trust is the answer to yet no it's just brutal

as part of the answer the same as everything is part of the answer and I think that's like you say it's father.

Zig Zsiga: [35:05] Zero trust brings in so many other

capability so it's and it truly is an architecture I mean you're talking real time data analytics and a know AI ML and those are all Buzz words right but it's real that's what is required for a true zero trust and automation I mean there's pillars of zero trust right so

it honestly like when you talk to customers about zero trust,

is going to be a process it is going to take a long time it's not a technology issue it's a governance issue it's a

culture issue it's a mindset issue and until that changes I mean zero trust isn't going to get there it's just going to take time

that's the ziggs opinion though that's my opinion sir.

Daren & Rick: [35:44] Four parts of the world it's there's there's,

laws that prohibit some of this stuff and you know user rights and things like that you know certain countries are very lenient and you can't control where people go and think you know so there's all these different layers that drive

where this is going to go and how he's going to get implemented on so many more layers than they used to be and now yeah yeah this is this is a complex.

Zig Zsiga: [36:09] But you mentioned Dan you mentioned interactive points kind of I think that maybe that wasn't the term you used going off memory in my memory is always.

Daren & Rick: [36:17] So interaction surface is you mean boo.

Zig Zsiga: [36:19] Yeah interaction.

Daren & Rick: [36:20] Turning the like that.

Zig Zsiga: [36:21] But that's you mentioned layers right now there's so many other layers and now with those layers other interaction whatever word you just used Services I mean each layers different,

surface right and in each layer does it have to interact with another layer does it you know just have to learn you know.

Daren & Rick: [36:37] So so this is something I mean I've sort of Fairly recently got involved well in fact,

beginning the covid I've got side again involved with a deployment of it was NSX T there are looking at n SX T but they're running it over a Cisco the excellent,

fabric which in turn is connected to an mpls Network right so straight away there you've got.

You got surface on Surface on Surface a lot of fun it's yeah you got layers you got to open up here is complexity there too and you know.

I mean that's their whole pitch right it's hey doesn't matter what the underlying we just we just built.

Zig Zsiga: [37:22] So here's what I would say right here's what I would say real quick okay,

if you add an overlay on top and sorry if you add an overlay on an underlay that is complex it's still complex right even though if you add an overlay on it you still have an underlay that was complex if you're underlay,

not working if you have an issue with an under like it's not available there's you know outages adding an overlay on top of that isn't going to solve anything like you still have a complex

you know broken underlie like I have customers that are like let me add GRE tunnels right remember GRE tunnels back in the day,

let me form an OSP ospf routing adjacency over GRE tunnels because my underlay sucks well a GRE tunnel is overlay right like in the simplest form,

and that's just a Band-Aid like if your underlay is broken you have to fix your underlying sorry.

Daren & Rick: [38:09] Recursive routing.

Zig Zsiga: [38:10] Yes recovers a friend.

Daren & Rick: [38:11] Let me get my total destination over my tunnel.

Zig Zsiga: [38:16] Policy policy-based routing how about that.

Daren & Rick: [38:20] Even ABF PBR.

Zig Zsiga: [38:25] Yeah all of it man.

Daren & Rick: [38:26] Mechanical stuff it's so hard to manage but what I wanted to go back was now your point about the underlay and again my opinion is that that should be simple it should be.

If it's going to be right point-to-point legs.

/ / 30 30 ones or 30s or whatever it ends up being and super just boom routing simple just next top reach ability or loopback reach ability and that's it.

And then everything that goes on top of it it's not so complex at that point.

If if I know you know because think about it like if you want to equate a fabric to something shouldn't it be like a switch and a backplane.

And interconnections over the backplane fabric right that's what it should kind of mimic there should be simple when you plug it together so.

Zig Zsiga: [39:30] Rick you're Ricky rear takeaway for everyone is keep it simple stupid right kiss is that that's your takeaway really right so so that's this takeaway kiss just live with kiss and Brace kiss and move on.

Sorry I threw it out there.

Daren & Rick: [39:45] And if you think you're going to be something's making wild Reef get because.

You know if you built you put all this governance into building something,

strong and you know fortified and well performing and then over here you've compromised and you go I'd just bring a Spur out there and let's just stretch layer 2 out there will be no problem.

Zig Zsiga: [40:08] No one had any issues spinner stretching spanning tree right no one had any issues stretching spanning tree between different two different locations that.

Daren & Rick: [40:15] That's which is the spanning tree Loop or the trend expanding tree root of all be lands that Network and everything and it's on a that's not a hundred Meg Lincoln all heck Breaks Loose right.

Zig Zsiga: [40:27] I want to I want to I want to.

Taking this to a different turn from it right because we're talking about the evolution Network design right but I want to talk about the evolution of networks because I think it's imperative here that if you go back 30 years or 40 years ago I don't know if any of us were actually in

networking 40 years ago right maybe maybe some of us I do not me I'll just I was.

Daren & Rick: [40:47] No no 4030.

Zig Zsiga: [40:50] So 30 all right.

Daren & Rick: [40:51] 1989 just right you know.

Zig Zsiga: [40:54] Just all right noted know that you guys are dating yourselves just for the record and it's on it's on a recording so people are going to hold you to it now.

Daren & Rick: [41:01] You don't get this gray hair from just start now.

Zig Zsiga: [41:04] So I'm trying to get at is that when we were back,

thirty years ago let's just say right when you had a router you had a switch they didn't have a whole bunch of memory they don't have a bunch of resources so this design decisions back then where to,

attack to the devices like it was to hey I only have 64k memory or something like that right

and so I have to limit my ospf database table I have to limit eigrp I have to limit I can't inject all the bgp routes in the internet table right I can't have all that so a lot of the

the design decisions back then were based on the resource limitations,

now we fast forward to today we don't have resource limitations like that right these routers these switches are beefy they have memory they have you know CPU they have ports they have bandwidth back planes that can you know whatever the bandwidth is these days,

so the design isn't because of the device anymore the design decisions are all because of.

The business and the services and the applications that were supporting right that where that the network is is running like or

that are running on top of the network is all about you guys feel all that is that my saying anything that's wrong there.

Daren & Rick: [42:16] With some clarification I mean because they're still different classes of Hardware where you know you can have deep upper switches versus you know and or lime rates which is versus non laying right switch and you know,

so the vice Persona is important.

Write that down device Persona is important when you choose the hardware do put in the different places in the network it's important you could be underperforming because of your Hardware choice so.

Just to you know caveat it with that but yes you're I agree.

It's it's what's on top of the network that's driving the design now.

[42:59] Does that necessarily have to equate to topology right so you know three-tier Network.

[43:08] We lived it we embraced it we sold a lot of Hardware as a result of it is it necessary.

Spine weep collapsed core aggregation virtualization all of these things drive that topology so with that said.

And again now we're talking about Fabrics to so now overlay Network so I think topology still plays a certain.

Aspect of it and it could be more of an aspect than depending on what you choose to do.

You're Building Fabrics yet does you'll need a set of standards and design and governance to control how things are built but.

Yeah the eye.

The thing that always makes makes me think about this this sort of stuff is obviously because we spent so much time building vlans and stretching,

Collision dead do not collision domain to a broadcast domains and whatever and so we had to use.

Yeah I know you've already mentioned spanning tree and you know we're old we've got to talk about spanning tree from time to time it's what we do I will talk about IP Mobility into the old days,

mess.

Zig Zsiga: [44:29] Well throughout fabric path or what Trill how about that will just throw out.

Daren & Rick: [44:32] Dad I mean but but but the point is that those Technologies we were using right they,

they drove us to to take approaches to doing things like Aha and clustering and stuff like that in the networking infrastructure,

with by and large I don't think we need to do a lot of that now because because our mechanisms are better,

for failover and whatever within our underlays you know because we're just using rooted networks and we're using efficient routing protocols that,

with things like BFD and stuff that will just work and fast and so we don't have to do things like you know what you're that the thing I hate more than most

more than anything else from from all my time when I was doing network engineering was VPC in Nexus searching I don't know if how much experience you guys are.

[45:23] Multiple how many times did it break because the software was there were problems with aqua and it's because you're going to do something unnatural,

with the what with the actual ways that you're trying to drive the boxes what we've got now is the opportunity to not have to do those things and so we're in a miles better position,

in terms of actually designing the availability of the network but you have to understand how the,

application interacts with those networks in order to deliver it if that makes any sense because I don't think now you need to worry about things like em lag and things like you know High availability failover if you

structured the way you deliver your applications properly over the top of the network,

describe depends it depends on how you build it if you build it on to you have to if you build it on layer 3 you.

You know you've abstracted that and yeah you know but I go so a couple things one you know these.

Kind of answers to problems that we V PC or multilateral you know whatever Channel.

[46:38] We fix problems but we've also created trade new ones right and we've also given we've left it open so that.

Maybe it's not always applied a hundred percent correct you know there's there's a lot of configuration that.

Has to go on make these happen everybody does think somewhat different so that command-and-control piece which goes back to automation.

Denim right Vic and maybe fix topology but.

Yeah so it's not getting we give to People Too Much flexibility to configure it themselves and they don't fully understand it or what do you think.

I think there's there's part of that and again you know.

I'm in love we're all expert-level Cisco Engineers right ccie ççde now we've made,

are living on being that expert right and to say anything let,

that would indicate that you don't need that skill set is blasphemy in a lot of cases but should it be that complex or should it be kind of you know should it be Plug and Play I mean go back to PCS back in the day dma channels are cues

memory addresses and all of that stuff where you to put a card in the PC and how complex that was about that just ended Rex and time ever,

son I'm very that talk about birthdays I'm in desist.

Zig Zsiga: [48:06] You must have had some really really bad experience as a man because that was burned into your memory.

Daren & Rick: [48:11] I was a Nobel engineer man I remember.

Zig Zsiga: [48:13] I started out with no Velma.

Daren & Rick: [48:15] Dll issues and all other nonsense like that putting it put a network network interface card in when it when you had to avoid the video card and stuff like but whatever.

So ancient history but you're right you're right that's in there.

Zig Zsiga: [48:29] But but but the Knicks the network interface cards they weren't on board right you actually had to add a PCI version ya I got ya keep.

Daren & Rick: [48:37] Going before PCI ID yeah I did.

I don't I said Raisa right yeah but the point being is plug-and-play change that.

[48:50] Right it made the operating system self discover the peripherals that are being connected to it.

Right which works which works 99% of the time

but now I don't know I Gregory well right right so that again we talk about Evolution right so we're not going to get to this Panacea of overlays in

you know whatever it is vxlan or something else right so we're not going to get there by flipping the switch there's an evolution,

so I mean that in and of itself is a lesson that it took the PC industry which is.

Typically a fixed set of Hardware that's very controllable where we have something where you can plug any you know so to have that plug and play in this is not going to really happen and but going back to where I was going with,

this whole thing about ie in this in the level of expertise.

[49:50] You know in my opinion if you make things simpler from the day-to-day kind of stuff the,

you know the the moves adds and changes the user access which user actions should be simple man it's one way in One Way Out,

your building stuff that's crazy complex you're thinking too much so if you can take that and then take all of that effort in.

And knowledge in a mental powered put it into something else.

[50:25] Building a better quality of service plan for doing the multi-domain interconnects between these pods that we're talking about if you can put it into that,

that's much better time of your expert level resource,

I'll take you up a little bit with the with the access into the network thing in the complexity there but because again there comes back to my point of we've always tried to solve the problems of whatever's connected to the network,

in the network

because of all of that and more so now because we're getting all kinds of crazy nonsense wanting to connect to the network right so you know everything from from fridges to blah blah blah right so so,

but but and so I woke up at apart from that I see where you're coming from with this this is this is about.

Knowing what we can automate it's knowing about what we can abstract away and how we can manage the complexity.

That sits underneath all this stuff in a much more controlled way right.

Yeah I mean at some point the the easier make something at one layer it's got to be it's going to become complex at another.

You know automobiles all right.

Zig Zsiga: [51:43] Just moving the club complexity around.

Daren & Rick: [51:45] When it was very it was three things in an automobile right it was air fuel and Spark It's still that.

Put all of the control mechanisms and everything that controls that makes it so very complexed and it's you know it's funny I just I just did some work on my newer vehicle.

Spark plugs and coil packs.

You know as opposed to a centralized coil so now you're distributed which we say there is.

Zig Zsiga: [52:24] So I wanted to ask a couple things right so I was kind of waiting and not trying to over up interrupt anyone you mentioned Max right so so,

in a perfect world Mac is not Immaculate a MAC address but we can Mak like move ahead change just so we're clear about the different abbreviations there.

How long do you expect a Mac two chains or to take right if you're if there's a request in the business to do something move at or change something how long do you think that should take in today's environment.

Daren & Rick: [52:55] Now there's a question I guess for me it depends on I see everything has to start with issue Beyond it should happen when the ticket happens I agree,

put the point I suppose our user access when did yeah but why make a change.

You know you just say everything on yeah you shouldn't need to necessarily make it to be honest really you know if you know I don't want I don't want to.

Zig Zsiga: [53:25] Well the change it happened automatically right like it's is that what we're talking like the change should happen automatically.

Daren & Rick: [53:30] So the open ports open ports is always a problem on the network from a security point of view right now if you have the right attend ocation applied is it still the same.

Press it's not so if you have a solution for user access every port can be enabled.

Every wall jack can be open and who you are or what you are dictates the level of access that you get.

That's simple right that is six point that's automated that job that's all I'm nice I'm not easy isn't it why am I'm Rick Bauer boom boom I'm in I get this level of access you could you could argue,

okay and I guess zero trust you know takes that a step further right you know it's like open access to anything and everything is authenticate and everything in the applications and on the on the endpoints and then you just don't even care,

all you're literally doing is carrying traffic from from from anything to anything and and zero trust looks after all that so,

that's why it depends that's that's why.

Zig Zsiga: [54:38] What's the.

That's the evolution right like we're like what we're saying is the session-based transaction based authentication right like who you are what you are you get this level access right and only that level of access because that's all you need you don't you do not going to get what you want but.

Daren & Rick: [54:54] Least level of privilege right.

Zig Zsiga: [54:56] But that's predefined right that's pretty defined by a system of policy engine and controller of some sort to say Hey you are this user you're in this group or your this device you get this access here you go whereas the zero trust model is like an evolution of that

where it's tracking what you're doing it's logging what you're doing and saying hey this is an anomaly you're not supposed to be you're not normally doing this.

Daren & Rick: [55:20] From a from a network perspective we don't care.

Zig Zsiga: [55:24] Yeah it's all Sima it should be seen.

Daren & Rick: [55:24] Spain has not been done somewhere else we're not just Plumbing anymore we're more than Plumbing right so we have to be so go ahead say guy no I think I know where you're going but yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [55:36] A different world like again the long-term path right zero trust I mean I know I know there's a lot of.

Negative implications of zero trust but if you actually look at it it's going to solve a lot of the problems that we are trying to solve from a networking perspective

right like if we actually knew if let me rephrase not we if the applications owners actually knew what their applications are supposed to do.

Because they don't know they don't know and then we have to solve it.

Daren & Rick: [56:05] Dependency mappings are crucial you know to all of this anything that we've talked about if you don't know where your applications are and what they do and who they you know what the crosstalk is there's no way you can do any of this.

Zig Zsiga: [56:15] But like that goes to that step of like I Know Dan you want to say something so that's where zero trust fits right like know your application supposed to do and then lock it down right zero trust can do that for you right again go ahead.

Daren & Rick: [56:29] From a network perspective then in that case.

We don't care right so long as we can it's a long as we're able to live an enforcement mechanism someplace right but they recognize the need to be and this is I'm completely joined up with what you're saying but but,

I suppose,

what we thought was so used to is having the silos of we've got the network guys here and in fact you'll have more silos within the network guys because you'll have the DC Network guys here and you love the one that work guys there and you'll have the campus Network guys there,

yeah but can run just broken that model that I mean right ouring siloing that doesn't work anymore what it is,

the total and this is and this is where you know when I was talking about the,

NSX over over the data center that was the one really that sort of woke me up to this because how can you have,

Network tunnel endpoints that are on a piece of computer hardware that you've got no control over if you're in the network team very pleased that whole thing

without holy threesome difficulty to deliver as an end-to-end service and I guess I thought I'm getting that I understood but.

The reasoning and rationale behind that is very simple the network team is not.

[57:48] Giving me what I need they're not listening to me they're not working with me whatever it is which is why I'm gonna go and do what I wanted or what I need to do in order to get done what I need to get done it so which is the shadow it cloud.

Zig Zsiga: [58:00] Well that's that's why everyone with.

Daren & Rick: [58:02] The whole thing for this is the and this is and we're saying the same thing here because because basically what we're saying is you can't take those things and isolation anymore,

because because they're not they're not there they're all Munch together and but the problem is that you go back to our traditional methods of connecting things to a network and there's still a gap,

and so what we're saying here is we talked about zero trust and we're saying is Well actually the zero trust piece sits outside what would traditionally have been a network-based but it's part of it generally,

and that's why you need the application dependency to become part of that whole service provision from an IT perspective which we've been trying to do.

Since I think right because how else would we be able to deploy things effectively and and now it finally,

feels like we might just be getting to a point where we're all singing from the same Hymnal or solving we're go ahead zag.

Zig Zsiga: [59:01] So so all I want to say is that I know we're harping the applications but it's more than just applications Darren like you're going under your right eye so so everyone's tied on applications and I even said it right,

it's all the resources it's not just applications right it's more than just that application that web developer created or whatever it's the data that it's using its the metadata it's it's the sequel queries it's everything right

it's the lateral.

Daren & Rick: [59:27] If Brooke the iot devices that are being pushed into S3 buckets.

Need to be analyzed the blah blah blah is everywhere and you know what one point so Darren to kind of bring this around and put some onus on to the networking team as well so your your example of NSX right.

We're essentially doing the same thing right with fabric contracts SGS.

Fabric right so we're saying hey look you guys can secure your stuff and you don't know where it is so we're going to do it for you on the network.

Through it it's basically it's the same I agree I agree I agree but the enforcement points are in a different place.

People who can make those distinctions between the micro segments are in the air right now.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:20] Controller right is what you're saying it's a different policy engine or something like that to be vendor agnostic is a different type of point.

Daren & Rick: [1:00:26] The point is that you what we need to do is we need to be we need to consider the whole system we're used to looking at a distributed system that the network we need to make,

now the whole system not just not just what was traditionally considered them we can't solve the problems in our own silos right so it has to work together.

I mean some I mean it goes I mean you know the Phoenix project you know I mean there's so many you know.

And so and so we come all the way back to the airport.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:57] Full circle Full Circle it.

Daren & Rick: [1:01:00] Automation and all that sort of good stuff because and again it's all castration right it's that thing of being able to,

I love that word orchestration cuz it's a because it makes me think of music right it makes me think of you've got your your your brass section you've got this strings you've got your percussion and all of those people are working together,

deliver piece of music and that piece of music is your workflow right and you've got all of these different pieces,

you're bringing together and that for me is how you delivering us and it service because you've got the network.

You've got the infrastructure folks you've got Cloud folks you've got whatever and you're bringing all of those together so who is the conductor,

who's the conductor and who who is the orchestrator right so you know what you have to have some of your rather sorry yeah I was going to take that someone to complete range.

So in someone's conduct it right and so miss and then I mean who is now your conductor.

[1:02:09] Because we you know the workers should be pretty simple who you think you'll come by inductor your conductor is your operational it right because that's the people who,

keep it goin Who start it off and keep it going and make sure that it's doing what it needs to do they bring

one section up a little bit from time to time and then take them down and they and that's the performance right so that's your conduct,

is the person who's there your composure or you've got me on this one now so I'm glad you said that so let's let's just start there so point that you made.

The operations team is the conductor which.

Using always in practice in it right engineering and architecture says well the business says this and let's do this and they do it and they build it beautiful thing and then they hand it to operations it hey.

[1:03:00] Make this work whereas.

You know the point being is everybody's got to have an equal stake in the game you know you got to have your Ops Team in there you got to have your engineering you have your architecture you got to have your server storage and you know everybody,

all right he's got to be involved in that in those those changes because they affect everything and in the end of the day the Ops Team.

They've got to own it and operate it babe but I think that's the point isn't it that you're your composure.

Well I guess I've been up so come is my guess you compose it and I would say which is everything you said but in on it leadership right your composure is your architecture.

I'm a senior when you're a ranger is probably your engineering team who actually assemble the thing and put it all together so that so that when it when the conductor picks it up and starts the performance.

There's an opportunity for them the differences of course we're able to we and we have to,

is between taking the thing all the time right and be able to react to feedback and to potential changes and be able to constant the audience then becomes the business.

[1:04:18] I think I think you're yeah I think that's fair yeah I think that's fair yeah because and ultimately they're the ones who turn up and pay for the tickets,

so what if I am maybe sense of fun in the whole the whole shebang.

Zig Zsiga: [1:04:34] Alright guys so so we got about 10 minutes left I have this question and then I think we got to wrap it up man so,

you know we talked about years ago for networking and designing and all this right we talked about now we kind of went through that that process right but I'd like to talk about and that's kind of one pointed question to both of you is what do you envision the next 10 years,

Network design so I'll go with with Rick first what do you envision for the next 10 years in network design.

Daren & Rick: [1:05:03] Well I think what we're going to do is we're going to react to a lot of,

what what we're what we're putting into motion now right so from fabrics and the interconnectivity is the multi-domain we're going to start stitching that stuff together building the zero trust Network and the future and.

From an architectural perspective I think that's going to be the Big Driver there in the bets are going to be on that and.

From an engineering point of view I think it's it's going to be figuring out how do you become more efficient.

So

You know automation is definitely a part of all of this and I think that again is going to be driven by the architecture because we need to adapt to the demands of business and provide a service,

and solution product to do the business that meets their needs in order to sell the widgets and whosits.

Zig Zsiga: [1:06:05] All right thank you I did want to make one comment on what you guys were talking about earlier you guys felt that composer and my only comment on that was kind of

you said architect right like I would say it's an Enterprise business level architect not specifically in the Weeds on any specific Silo but someone that can see the entire picture for

not not just technical right but like business and Enterprise and because it's really an IT architect right it's not a

contacted someone that actually knows it and and out and knows the business and can kind of dictate how to do that.

Daren & Rick: [1:06:40] Because you know need to know how to assemble the piece of music right and that's that's what Lee from Orlando that's a great Point yeah so.

Zig Zsiga: [1:06:48] I like how we we and I'll open that last question do you there in a minute at the beginning of today's show to this to show right we had art references like you know

painting something we have an art reference and now at the end we had a music reference right so just the different references and how they relate to what we are doing right it's it's really cool in my opinion,

Daren what's that what's your.

Daren & Rick: [1:07:10] Does so so I'm really just following what what Rick said I think that you know the point is any it system,

we need to be agile with if we've let if we learn nothing else from from what happened last year.

The things can change and at the drop of a hat like so we need to really nail this idea that.

We don't build things in isolation that everything is impacted by everything else to your point there yeah that everything interacts so so.

You're building a distributed system and so you've got to understand all of the elements and how it all comes together and the only practical way.

Really to do that is through through Automation and orchestration because things will change and they will change fast and the only other way that we can.

Practically is to build build environments that are.

Bill that way but operated that way and so that's the process stuff that's.

[1:08:16] Agile if that's the way you want to look at it or whatever that thing is you know to to make sure that you that the information is there to everyone who needs it that you.

I don't know I mean intent-based networking for me is one of those things where it crops up from time to time in conversation I had a big conversation about this at the weekend,

taser,

there's a bigger picture right there's a bigger picture to it than simply it being a set of of specific Technologies or products right it's about an approach is about understanding and it's about the fact that,

you you take that intent and go through that process we've just talked about the composer and whatever building that that that orchestration as part of the Fulfillment of that intent,

and that's great because you can deliver a system that works end-to-end but if it when it needs to be changed,

um or if something starts to go wrong and Drew and the thing drift away from the work what you intended you have to be able to look at the whole thing,

understand what's going wrong.

Go through that Assurance process and feedback into that that fulfillment so that you'll you've got this closed loop that doesn't have to be.

[1:09:33] Automated all the way through it can be that it has needs human interaction to make it happen but if you choose that way of.

Operating the network then you've got the mechanisms there.

To be able to automate the parts of it to gradually get to a point where you build out some kind of autonomous environment and self-healing networks and all of those all of those wacky crazy things but the point is I think,

I think intent-based networking as a concept as a framework as an approach.

Gives you a really good way of understanding what that needs to look like so but yeah that's that's my answer.

Zig Zsiga: [1:10:14] Like it that's a good answer right any last-minute words from both he'll go with Rick first and last minute words of wisdom for everyone.

Daren & Rick: [1:10:22] Haha well on the rug.

Zig Zsiga: [1:10:24] Wizardry words of Wizardry even know.

Daren & Rick: [1:10:26] Yeah you know.

You gotta Embrace change you've got to adapt to the industry you can't fear,

change because if you do inadequacy is really not going to be all that pleasurable so you know.

Whatever it is whether it's intent-based networking you know zero trust fabric what have you these are the things that keep us employed.

Because.

You know the business and industry need smart people to figure this stuff out how it all places puts together and how you build these build these networks yeah there's some simplification that's going to happen.

There's some shifting of Labor you know you're not going to spend your time doing simplistic term you know.

Things you know changes met moves adds and changes you know you're going to be able to spend your time doing more complex things in solve the bigger problem for the business so definite definite Deb net.

Don't don't don't fear it pick it up learn it it's going to help you it's not going to put you out of a job it's going to create a new Avenue for you so you know.

Learn.

Zig Zsiga: [1:11:50] So that was good Rick I'll add one thing real quick you said Embrace change don't be afraid of change and you know anyone in it it doesn't matter network engineer or software engineer or a system engineer whatever you're doing a nightie,

there's something new every day like there's change right so if you're in this field you have to be able to deal with the change and it's going to happen and you're gonna be dealing with change every single day so.

Daren & Rick: [1:12:13] But it's not why we got into it anyway I mean to learn new stuff and to Tinker and do all that why is this stuff I just feel that so many people are fearful of this and I don't get it.

Zig Zsiga: [1:12:24] People are set in their ways man that's all of this people are.

Daren & Rick: [1:12:27] Absolutely but my our ways are set in doing this in always learning right that state so yeah open the book.

Web cake you know whatever figure it out it's fun all I would add

is is community right so so you mentioned definite already but there's a whole bunch of people out there who are desperately trying to

get find Direction but be give it as well and Rick and I with the in its sixth thing you know we this is why we did it because we love the learning,

but it's also about sharing that journey and bringing people with us right it's the reason why you're doing this podcast right now right it's what you're here for,

so you know reach out and.

There are people to help you if you get stuck or if you just want to talk to someone about it that's what we're here for right so now I mean.

Maximize the relevance I like that that term again,

maximize your relevance because that's what it is it's about staying relevant by learning and moving on move with the time.

Zig Zsiga: [1:13:35] Hey guys I appreciate I loved your last minute last kind of comments there last recommendations or suggestions for the community here thank you both for the really much I was horrible

thank you both very much I appreciate you for joining me today I think was an outstanding show and I hope you guys have a great day thanks again.

Daren & Rick: [1:13:53] Thanks Eggman this was fun I had a great time I really enjoyed it thank you yeah too much fun.

Zig Zsiga: [1:14:00] Too much fun right we gotta do it again.

Daren & Rick: [1:14:02] Always good seeing you yeah Angie.

Zig Zsiga: [1:14:05] Hey friends nerds geeks and ziglets that's gonna close out this episode of the zigbits network design podcast where we discussed the evolution of network design

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