Demystifying The Role of the Network Engineer with A.J. Murray – ZNDP 076

ZNDP 076: Demystifying The Role of The Network Engineer with A.J. Murray

Zig Zsiga: [0:00] Demystifying the role of the network engineer with A.J Murray.

Episode 76 welcome back my friends nerds geeks and ziglets out there we have another episode of the zigbits network design podcast where zigabytes are faster than gigabytes as always we strive to provide

real world context around technology I'm Zig and I'm your host as always today I have a good friend of mine here today his name is A.J Murray and we're going to dive into

what the network engineer roles but kind of from a deployment engineer perspective so AJ thanks for joining today how you doing buddy.

Yeah man it's a I've been trying to get you on the show for a while you know you're a little busy.

A.J. Murray: [0:40] Little busy these days but you know that you know how it goes.

Zig Zsiga: [0:46] Yeah man it's a grind at times but there's always so much that we want to do right so I want you to everyone who you are and what you do and all that good jazz.

A.J. Murray: [0:54] Yeah yeah absolutely so I am A.J Murray.

I am a senior deployment engineer and team lead at a Cisco bar or a Cisco partner well now it's not just Cisco we do we do just about everybody but.

A primarily as the.

The Enterprise networking team lead I focus on Enterprise networking so you know routes which a little bit of data center in there so you know Nexus my specialization is software-defined.

So I do focus on sdx ssto and,

HEI in the data center and because of all that I'm getting more and more and more into devops so it's been super exciting I'm currently pursuing my definite associate certification.

Zig Zsiga: [1:39] Nice let's a lot so how do you like focusing on SD SD just SD I guess right software defined yeah.

A.J. Murray: [1:48] I love it I've always had a passion for networking and this is like you know the next evolution of that and it's,

evolving so quickly and it's kind of hard to keep up with it at times but,

you know there's more than enough stuff to keep me busy and you know with every new version they're coming out with new features and stuff it's really fun and exciting.

Zig Zsiga: [2:09] I'm real quick couple things right so you mentioned that you're a team lead right so I'd like to talk about that to today if that's cool with you,

there's I think there's some interesting conversations we have around that now I was a team lead at one point and the same vertical so what is of our let's what does VAR stand for maybe I'm putting on the spot there but as far as staying for and what does that really mean.

A.J. Murray: [2:31] Yeah value-added reseller and you know as as my friend and co-host of the podcast a time-honored network engineering Aaron might say the name is in the recipe.

So we don't just sell you stuff we add value while we sell you stuff.

And so we'll work with you throughout the entire process will help you design a solution make sure that the solution fits in your network and works with other things that you have,

and most importantly in part of my job is to help you quote-unquote adopt that technology into your environment and make sure that you're getting the most out of it.

Flyer using it.

Zig Zsiga: [3:07] That's great now you mentioned something and I want to just make sure I highlight it again so you you're a host a co-host of another podcast what's that podcast again.

A.J. Murray: [3:16] It is the art of network engineering.

Zig Zsiga: [3:18] And where can people find that.

A.J. Murray: [3:20] You can find us on Art of network engineering.com and pretty much anywhere there's podcasts so you know,

Spotify iTunes Google just about anywhere that you can find a podcast I think you can find us and if she if you can't find us let me know and I'll get it signed up there.

Zig Zsiga: [3:39] No worries no worries so I will have the link obviously in the show notes

and I have been on their podcast twice I think one is actually been published it maybe I missed the date for the other one I don't know but so real quick I'm going to do a quick Spiel it's a great Community it's a great show that they have

they have a Discord server for Discord server is that what they call it I think they call it a Discord server right yeah

I'm like it's is usually it's a slack group it's you know but I wasn't sure if it's a Discord group.

Obviously I'm showing my age I don't know these terms as this court and whatnot but,

do they have a great community and it's really it's really inspiring and so if it's something you guys wanted to enjoy and be a part of they really are inspiring everyday there's a lot of motivation going on

people saying hi every morning they're working on certifications working on Career moves you can be anywhere in your career working on anything,

in ite networking and you can be part of this group and maybe I didn't highlight the very well AJ so you know yell at me if I didn't.

A.J. Murray: [4:39] Now man you you nailed it you nailed it.

Zig Zsiga: [4:42] It's all about the journey right that's the whole point it's all about the journey.

A.J. Murray: [4:44] That's right exactly.

Zig Zsiga: [4:46] Alright awesome I wanted to make sure we highlighted that little bit will probably do it a couple more times because I think that's extremely valuable and it's something that everyone should definitely go and join and be part of that that environment so alright so.

Let's talk about the network engineering role that you fill out your value-added reseller today let's talk about the actually engineering part not the team lead part but like the engineering part you know what is that role for you today.

What does it mean.

A.J. Murray: [5:13] So as a senior employment engineer it's a little bit different than just a regular deployment engineer.

We take on a lot of our own projects it's a little more,

hands off if we need help obviously we can get that but we're look to as a senior person in a particular particular technology vertical and so when other Engineers need assistance they come to us,

if there's assistance needed on pre-sales will jump into the pre-sale conversation but that's typically not where you'll find us,

but we know we certainly love to jump into that part of the whole process and then,

we kind of helped manage the project like we have project managers that manage the milestones and everything like that but you know we work with the customer to,

learn about their environment and get to details that we need how they want you know this particular solution whatever they purchased set up and deployed in their environment.

And so it's it's a lot of nerd knobs and.

Zig Zsiga: [6:17] Oh hey it's a lot of nerds I mean it sounds like you do a lot of things right it sounds like,

not just not just doing the engineering aspect you're doing the design document writing is that a thing.

A.J. Murray: [6:28] Oh yeah I do percent yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [6:29] So maybe why don't you go in a day the life of what you do like you know you wake up in the morning you have your coffee whatever maybe you don't drink coffee I don't know right.

A.J. Murray: [6:38] Oh yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [6:39] Yeah it's wake up at four in the morning right no that's a be sorry you wake up so so

you know you're on a yarning engagement a project or whatever and what's to be getting that project because I don't know if it dating life is actually an accurate description right I'm sure it's more of a what's the beginning of that project all the way to the end high-level bullets of what you do.

A.J. Murray: [7:01] Sure sure so we typically will kick off with like an internal meeting where it's just you know.

Everybody except for the customer and it's just okay here's here's the project here still the deliverables the statement of work,

and you know we'll review the bill of materials which is already been reviewed at least two or three times before then but we were view it one last time make sure everything's there you know in case there's any last minute things that you ordered.

And then we'll approve everything and move on to the customer kickoff meeting and,

well depending on the size of the project besides the customer will meet everybody on the customer side will introduce them to everybody on our side because you know as far as me for the deployment engineer unless I was welding the pre-sale this is,

typically my first time meeting the customer and you know understanding from their perspective what this project means to them.

And then after the kickoff meeting will set some dates for design.

And we'll stock talk specifically in Greater detail on what this project is going to look like what they're you know specific requirements are.

And then we'll start to build out the information that we need in order to successfully deploy you know whatever it is that we're doing.

Zig Zsiga: [8:16] Okay all right cool so there's a lot there right so the first time you get the project or you see anything about the project so someone else actually like sells it

right because your development deployment engineering so there's a pre-sales part of this there's someone on that actually sells the the solution to the customer both the hardware

software products whatever but then also the services portion of it right which is what you are you're on the services side or Professional Services or deployment right,

and then you get involved and so your process is you get the statement of work and just so everyone knows what a statement of work is that's a high-level document kind of articulating what you're on the hook to do right really from a Services perspective it's like hey,

these Milestones right and you know maybe they'll get a certain amount of money per mile Stone once it's once they hit that Milestone or whatever you guys,

not the customer the customer pays you sound certain Milestones you don't pay the customer but hum and my articulating them all correctly though.

A.J. Murray: [9:13] Hey y'all yeah absolutely.

Zig Zsiga: [9:14] It helps I was working at a bar right and if you have had a recent I was just trying to highlight those right I don't know if anyone else would know what a statement of work is what's the bill of materials.

A.J. Murray: [9:23] So the bill material is everything that we would need,

for a given deployment so you know if we're talking about a chassis switch you know how many chassis did you get what are the line cards that are there how many power supplies have been,

how it you know do we need sfps or anything of that nature,

sometimes it includes things like cables sometimes the customer decides to order that somewhere else or a different Source will go over licensing as well and then you know did they get.

Any sort of technical support or support contracts whatever tied to the do to those devices.

Zig Zsiga: [9:59] Okay cool so it's everything that you purchased now I'm going to ask this question and it wasn't planned right as always I don't plan everything out that's not the points on scripted so you know what happens to that pre-sales engineer got something wrong that never happens right.

A.J. Murray: [10:12] I wish I could say it never happens but it happens and it's sometimes it's just like.

You know especially today when everything is remote right like.

You know it used to be easier when you can go on-site have a look at everything and I think now because of the remote nature we're kind of taking everything at you know the customers word and you know maybe they forgot to share a detail with us or something like that,

um

I think it depends on what it was that got missed you know we will handle in different ways sometimes you know as the bar will just kind of eat the Cosby like okay whatever they forgot like one cable or an SSP or something like that no big deal but if it's a bigger mess,

you know then we have to go back and have the conversation with the customer like oh well you know due to some you know new knowledge we've learned this about you know the situation and so you know here's how we want to propose it and it's going to.

Maybe depending on what it is like maybe we'll split the cost or something like that I've certainly been on both sides I was a customer and that stuff has happened to me and I appreciate how at least of ours that I've worked with have handled those situations.

Zig Zsiga: [11:23] Okay now that's good that's good right so my experience a lot of it's always like power cables like we didn't get the right power cables for the devices I was just curious is that something that's similar to you guys too yeah it's always like the different countries.

A.J. Murray: [11:37] Cables are always the crotch right there.

Zig Zsiga: [11:38] Yeah

and I go on-site and I'm going to rock the equipment I go to Power It Up and like okay we don't have the right power cables and it's like a Mad Dash to go find the power cables at some place I can't even imagine doing that now with all this going on with covid in the pandemic like because you're not going on site right

I mean are you relying on the customer to Rack everything up and power it all on.

A.J. Murray: [11:59] Yeah yeah I mean you know I would say that it was good it was good split of like 60/40 before where,

I would get projects where I was traveling like a lot like all throughout New England Northeast part of United States and I've even gone around the country for some of the projects that I've done you know I I primarily serve the Northeast which you know if you're looking at a map it's like,

New York Pennsylvania New Jersey and then all the way up to Maine right but I go where the work is if my skills are needed somewhere else and that's where I'm going.

But with covid-19 there was a couple of local projects I haven't stepped on a plane and I don't know how long.

And quite quite honestly in the past couple of months other than some really local stuff I haven't had to drive for work.

Zig Zsiga: [12:46] Wow I haven't I haven't flown in so long my day job I'm also a traveler and I travel 90% time and I haven't been on a plane and since I think February right before everything hit

so we know we're around and almost a year and when you haven't I don't know about you I mean I've had to change our whole entire business model like

not not like our business model I work at Cisco obviously but not their business model right but like

how we do our business internal because I don't travel anymore like so it's like we have to figure out all new ways to drive what we do from a post cells perspective or Services perspective.

How about you how about it's all different right.

A.J. Murray: [13:26] Yeah yeah completely completely it's a lot more you know remote sessions you know let's let's Fire / WebEx let's let me take control you know as long as they get everything wrapped stacked and power it on and console cable connected I can take it from there.

Zig Zsiga: [13:39] I would like to highlight a couple things about the role that you're in right like the it's a senior kind of network deployment engineer roll

but really it's pretty high-level right you mean you have to know a lot of things things is probably the wrong word you have to be fairly.

It to be almost like a generalist wait to be a specialist in the number of things number Technologies there's a better word because you're like given kind of,

free reign to do the work you need to do.

Um and make it successful that customer you know I'm assuming you're going to create a design that design phase you're going to put a design in a document what's that document called if you have a design document.

A.J. Murray: [14:20] Throughout high level design a level design.

Zig Zsiga: [14:22] Any of the start there right do you have a high level design document and hld or I don't know what you guys would call it so you know.

A.J. Murray: [14:27] Yeah yeah well usually get an hld handed off to us from details you know and it's just like okay here's here's the general moving Parts you know they want to do some sort of you know.

If hrp here but it's not determine exactly which one and then we got to come in and say okay well,

still are they familiar with HSR P or would they rather us to Erp or something like that so we'll handle the low level design.

Zig Zsiga: [14:51] That's cool okay so someone on the priest outside so not just the build materials and the statement of work and all that stuff thus the pre-sales guys do the high level design but they don't go down to the actual protocol specific things they go okay you need a first opportunity protocol

but I'm not going to tell you which one right like that's where they kind of stopped it's more of like you need this capability and then that's it and that high-level design they have the hardware

they have the line cards the ports the protocol are not the protocols the the cabling

and then it's on YouTube like okay well you need FH @ RP or sorry first off we're done see protocols so let's do H Sr P or VR P or D lb P or whatever right

same thing for probably routing protocols and I take it right so like you would determine which routing protocol they would say you need a routing protocol problem.

A.J. Murray: [15:37] Yeah yeah exactly and I mean sometimes it's already determined by the customers environment maybe they're already using ospf and eigrp but you know sometimes those details,

aren't clearly stated in the hld because that's information the customer you know already knows they already know it's running their environment so they don't necessarily slap it on the document and it's not until,

you know I show up to kind of understand okay what do you got going on here and they'll explain to a psycho well-run EIG.

Zig Zsiga: [16:02] That point I mean I know I'm harping on the process right I think it's kind of an interesting perspective to take because I don't think a lot of people actually know

this process I think a lot of people are full-time you know Junior Network engineers and network Engineers your network engineers

at a company and they're doing you know the normal kind of 1M tasks operation maintenance tasks and project tasks for that company but they don't know potentially how to leverage a

value added reseller and that Staffing their and leveraging their project experience like you write like you're your SD win or SDA experience

um to deploy a solution for them and then kind of like give them what they need to be successful then it kind of walk away I'm rambling again as always.

What are some some kind of tips you would give to a network engineer that's on that other side right so like if I let's pretend I'm a customer of yours and we're deploying us deal and you know what are the tips you would give me

say hey this is how we have to you know make this successful here are the things that you need to do to make sure I get all the information I need and will you need to do to make sure that we're good from here to the end of that project.

A.J. Murray: [17:11] Maybe it's a completely inaccurate description but sometimes I like to think of myself as like.

The SWAT team of network engineering or the special forces of network engineering I have a very special set of skills and I get called in to you know certain situations to help deploy very specific things,

and so the biggest thing that helps move is documentation documentation documentation documentation.

[17:41] And a really good place to start are going to be the documents that you as the customer will.

From the partner throughout this process because you're going to get a bill of materials you're going to get the high level design and a low level design and then I'm going to provide you some as-built documents which will.

You know it's like here's here's what we're going to do then we'll do it and then I'm going to tell you what I did and sometimes because of various reasons sometimes what I did is a little bit different than what we set out to do.

And so you take that as built documentation the bill of materials and everything and you put that together and that's now your network documentation but that's,

that's your network documentation for that point in time now it's up to you as the customer to keep that stuff up to date,

as time progresses because then when you call us back in to do another project,

Stan environment will undoubtedly have changed since the last time I was in there and it will help me if your documentation is up-to-date the next time I show up to do a project for you.

Zig Zsiga: [18:48] So that that's that's great information I think because I think that people are going to find that very useful

and that's going to help them be successful when they do engage a deployment engineer like yourself a deployment team so let's get into a little bit more Concepts like do you only had like one project at a time where do you have multiple projects ongoing.

A.J. Murray: [19:06] I have multiple projects ongoing and any given time and that's part of the reason why I really love this job because I'm seeing new networks like every couple of weeks.

And you know it one week it's muraki and the next week it's Nexus and the week after that or talking DNA Center and I've been working on a project that's has me doing NSO,

Network Services orchestration and it's just a whole lot of fun.

Zig Zsiga: [19:34] So you're touching technology and you're touching different technology and different projects and it's like week-to-week right now so that you're getting so

you're getting exposed to so much and it's real world right you're getting exposed to all these things in a real production environment and you're either migrating away from something or migrating to it you're deploying something new and then

you're getting all that experience you're also probably training I'm putting words in your mouth but I'm assuming your training,

what do you guys call trying to I know I always call it like knowledge transfer or something like that.

A.J. Murray: [20:08] You know it depends like if it's if we're working with a junior engineer it's usually like on-the-job training but will be very transparent about that you know when we're on a call with a customer if we have a junior engineer that,

we're not just going to shove him in there and I look like a good luck you know kind of thing you know we'll be transparent with the customer like oh you know hi I'm AJ I'm your lead engineer for this project.

Here I have somebody else that's a little bit Greener here for the ride.

Zig Zsiga: [20:33] Zig he's doesn't know anything about Estevan and you're going to teach him all about sdn okay cool now what about the customer side do you train them to.

A.J. Murray: [20:43] Yeah in the degree to which we train them varies it depends on on how much training they want from us there are some customers that specifically want to build eight hours of training time on this new,

you know product or whatever like into the project are it sometimes handing off the documents at the end of the project is enough training for them you know if it's just simply,

migrating to a newer version of something they already have their typically fine with taking the helm after we've got it implemented.

Zig Zsiga: [21:14] So when you're in these you know you're seeing all these new different Technologies week to week or every couple weeks and I'm sure you hit a technology they never touched before so what do you do in those circumstances if you haven't seen something or you see something you haven't learned before.

A.J. Murray: [21:29] Yeah so you know particularly if it's a Cisco technology one of the first places and I'll start our Cisco live on demand sessions.

Because those usually give like a great overview of the technology some of them even talk about deploying,

you know in a new environment or if you want to set up a lab so there's lots of great resources for Cisco live on demand,

I'm from there I have some additional resources that I use like you know video video-based training right,

you know CBT Nuggets Pearl site something like that some of its you know personal that I you know have on hand for myself some of its company-provided.

And then of course there's always like white papers Cisco verified designs depending on what the subject is right so there's lots of really good resources out there for me too,

I'll start playing and then now you know like even with Cisco definite,

if there's something like automation wise that I need to jump in and learn there's the sand boxes there's lots of great Labs so there's plenty of resources that I like to walk so when I'm learning something new.

Zig Zsiga: [22:35] All right so you're learning on the fly right because that's what you have to do are you given time to learn that though like that's my biggest question like.

A.J. Murray: [22:42] Thankfully we are you know usually sales has enough heads up like hey this is coming and this might be new for you know somebody or,

you know maybe maybe it's something that you know we see but we don't see it often or whatever we're usually given a heads up and if it's looking like a huge project,

you know they'll let us know well in advance and I'll start carving out some time to start playing with the new stuff.

Zig Zsiga: [23:07] Good I was just curious but I've been in some situation the past for like,

yeah they don't give you that time that they don't know it's not proactive and it's on you like you're stuck in the situation where you have to learn it on the Fly

and I need to become an expert overnight with it right you have to learn it enough that when you go inside the customer you're not like

teaching them something wrong and you're not if the customer knows more than you then there's no sense and you know doing the engagement in my opinion so I'm glad that you guys are there giving you time to do it because that that's a

that's success rate there right and if there's not time to learn is in this day and age we're not going to know everything right we're just not going to know everything right so.

A.J. Murray: [23:46] Frank and with as much as I touched you like sometimes I need to review.

Zig Zsiga: [23:51] Exactly right.

A.J. Murray: [23:52] Like I I think it's worth even though it's one of the things I love it's also one of the I think kind of pitfalls of this position is that I don't live and breathe environment everyday like I don't operate a network I operate many.

And I'm only there for you know a very short period of time

so I don't always get a chance to get super familiar with some of these things at least not as familiar as as I would like to be some cases like I don't I don't operating at work full time that does ospf eigrp or bgp I helped set up bgp and then I leave.

Zig Zsiga: [24:26] Okay alright cool so I'm going to dive into hopefully a hypothetical or potentially example situation maybe I was

is brainstorming this in my head so let's say we're maybe you have a DNA Center

project I guess since that is a resonating here in my mind can you go through the process like that you'd go through on

now everything from beginning to end with the project with the customer and let's say it's a very large project right with multiple obviously DNA Center and you have ice you know where Cisco specific piece is an example here but you have ice and all these other facets of DNA Center and SDA,

um yeah just kind of go through it you do.

A.J. Murray: [25:04] Yeah sure so when a very large project like that.

You know what now that you mention it we are actually in the early stages of a very large deployment that will include SD access tyn and replacing all of the routers and switches at over 300 remote site so,

we're kind of doing that right now so in that case we will have multiple deployment Engineers on the.

You know senior Network Engineers Junior Network engineers and we will go through the design phase and.

Almost all of the senior Engineers will probably have some type of lead role so like a lead technologist so,

you know somebody will take the lead with SD way and somebody will take the lead with DNA Center somebody will take the lead with ice,

and you know they will work on their individual components but then of course all of those things talk to each other and so we will continue to work,

in tandem on okay well once I get my you know VM stood up here's the information I need to provide to you here's the information I need from you in order to make these two things talk together.

And then once we get everything stood up we'll go through like a proof-of-concept almost like you know is this working as we think it should be,

are we able to deploy new devices through DNA Center and get the fabric up.

[26:26] And then once we have this kind of process templatized we can then take it run through it a few times make sure it's working and then after that we can pass it off to say a junior engineer with some instructions and have them,

you know we replace some routers and switches at a site and make sure that they come up in the sty in fabric make sure that they come up next to a fabric and everything's at.

Zig Zsiga: [26:49] Wow so I mean it's really a collaborative environment you're also leveraging multiple skill sets multiple people so like talking communicating must be important you must have some sort of

function of like quarterbacking the engagement right is that kind of you as that that lead right that that kind of lead person are you kind of quote about packing

quarterbacking yeah there we go are you quarterbacking these engagements being the lead.

A.J. Murray: [27:15] Yeah definitely not on all of them I mean we have multiple senior Engineers but you know there are certainly projects where I will be designated the lead engineer for the project and so I am the.

Consistent face for the customer side they have a technical question you know I didn't even do the project will start with need first and then you know I won't answer the question or pass them off to,

the appropriate engineer to answer their question.

Zig Zsiga: [27:40] All right so do you mind if we dive into kind of the team lead responsibilities a little bit

I think it would be great to hear kind of what you do as a team lead how many people are on your team and I think it could even be better like are they do they report to you how does that kind of function.

A.J. Murray: [27:57] Yeah sure so the team lead role is new for me and it's actually new for the organization that I work for,

we have decided that you know and it's amazing the growth that we've seen in the last year so I'm on the North Northeast Enterprise Network team and a year ago.

That team did not exist.

Zig Zsiga: [28:18] Who look at that in your guinea pig pretty much you're the guinea pig right you're the team leader.

A.J. Murray: [28:22] Right yeah and so it formed in late December early January of this year and it was literally me.

To other engineers and then our our lead engineer our and he's now the manager of the Enterprise networking team for the Northeast because we now have over 10 people on this team it's crazy how much it's grown just since.

January so as a team lead I have three or four Engineers that report to me and I say or four because there's a couple of pending hires.

And and so for them you know I am basically their manager we work together we create some goals for them to achieve throughout the year we want to make sure that they feel like they're having some good growth,

I manage their project responsibilities or their projects that they get assigned and so I help review statements of work,

after those are approved and we get the word back that the customer has purchased.

Then we'll take and assign those statements of work those projects to particular engineer so I kind of make sure that the work is load balanced or,

placed with the appropriately skilled engineer so if I've got a nice project I'll place it with a particular Gene that's really good with ice right or meno Meraki project whatever the case may be.

Zig Zsiga: [29:44] That's cool though like it's a whole different ballpark right there you're really kind of directing traffic and validating and then also probably what handling technical alignment and training and all those things.

A.J. Murray: [29:56] Exactly hey you know making sure that the engineers that work for me like feel supported that you know if they need you know,

training or if any bench time or if they need time to study for a certification I help provide that kind of air cover for them so that way you know if somebody's like oh well we need an engineer to do this well then you might have to go check with another team because my guys are busy right now.

Zig Zsiga: [30:18] Nice nice no I think that's good right but you're still our technical right so it's not like you're a full-time manager.

Like it let me rephrase that you are a full-time manager because you're managing a team right but you're not doing management tasks full-time because they're able to kind of do what is that split like 40 percent 60 percent 10% 90%.

A.J. Murray: [30:38] Right so it's my time is still billable and the goal is that a minimum of fifty percent of my time is still billable.

Zig Zsiga: [30:46] Okay yeah that's not bad.

A.J. Murray: [30:48] And so it's expected that apportion the remaining 50% a portion of it is just you know the management in the administrative stuff that I have to do as a manager or team lead and then you know the rest of it is a little bit of studying or you know,

required training whatever the case may be.

Zig Zsiga: [31:05] And just so we're one understands billable means your customer facing your on a customer engagement and so you're technically on there there

project and you're able to build or whatever however you guys do it from a financial perspective but then your company's going to get paid for those hours towards that customer.

Just making sure because I don't know if I I know I know a billable means by don't know if anyone else know so visible is it is like maybe that's something we should Define you know like,

I try to think everyone else is listening I am because I don't I make a lot of assumptions though so know that that sounds actually like a role that I I always like to write like being that kind of team lead that principle,

architect engineer whatever now I never actually had people reporting to me it was always like a,

dotted line where like I had five Engineers that were like I'm the lead or the you know the principal or whatever.

And everything went for me from a technical perspective but I never actually manage the people and so I was part of like the review process as part of pay raises all the admin stuff but I didn't have to worry about like

anything else doesn't want to do

so have probably it was like The Best of Both Worlds for you you actually are doing all the admin stuff you're doing the management stuff but you're also doing the technical stuff so it's really kind of like dual hatted right.

A.J. Murray: [32:27] Yeah exactly and for me it's Best of Both Worlds because I came.

Prior to this position I came from a leadership background I was an IT manager and you know that that's definitely a part of the job that I really do enjoy.

You know I like it's not that I like having people like reporting to me or something like that right it's you know I like building the team I like making sure that,

people feel like they have a place where they're working and that they have a runway in a place that they can you know work and enjoy and stuff like that and so I'm,

proud to be a part of the culture of this company and help shape that what that looks like for the people that work for me.

Zig Zsiga: [33:04] That's awesome I think that's great it sounds like it's the job you wanted right the job that you kind of were made for.

A.J. Murray: [33:09] Yeah yeah really it because I really did enjoy like the management piece but I woke up one day and realized like I'm not doing the tech anymore and I want to get back to the pack.

Zig Zsiga: [33:18] Well that's always my my concern is I don't want to go manager route because I won't be Hands-On and I don't.

I just I love I mean even in my role today like it's higher level I'm not on the command line,

any more personally I don't touch the command line I don't touch the GUI I don't I don't click buttons I'm in PowerPoint you know and that mean I'm good at what I do right so but there's there's some drawbacks like I would like to do go to play mpls you know like I'd like to go

play the tech go do some SD and SDHC and although it's not always but I still am very good at my job and I'm helping my customers so it's just a given take a guess.

All right so I think that's good stuff right there so I got a couple questions are pointed questions as always right.

So you know from a from a certification perspective you know what would you recommend are the certs that you should go after to be kind of in these roles.

A.J. Murray: [34:10] Well definitely this ccnp I mean you know.

If you don't have it yet your CCNA because that that's definitely like a stepping stone but definitely the ccnp after I get to ccmp,

even though it wasn't necessary for me to be a senior network engineer senior Diplomat engineer it helps right like if I'm going to have people reporting to me that it helps that I have a professional level.

Zig Zsiga: [34:38] Nice nice so here's some questions right so like.

You know I always ask someone that I'm on these demystifying sessions with like how can someone get into this role

right and usually it's like a network engineer role and your Junior network engineer and you're kind of just starting out but this is a little different right because and maybe I'm wrong and you can again you can tell me right I'm making an assumption here,

you kind of can't be a junior network engineer I don't think

in this role you kind of have to be kind of a season Dish Network Engineer you kind of have to have your ccas or your ccmp is like you said you kind of have to be able to be a self-starter and be able to work on these projects without a lot of supervision,

is that all accurate statements.

A.J. Murray: [35:21] Um actually.

For us you can be a junior network engineer we hire Junior with Engineers you don't have to have your CCNA does it help absolutely.

But if you're you know if you are a self-starter if you can work,

you know unsupervised for periods of time because that you know especially now everything's remote right like we don't all sit in a cubicle Farm we don't have our boss around us all the time I work out of my house by myself,

so

Zig Zsiga: [35:49] Yep and our new norm and it's our new Norm.

A.J. Murray: [35:52] Yeah exactly you definitely got to be a self-starter but you know we always have projects where and even now during during covid-19 we always have projects where,

we need smart hands you know the it's in the statement of work that we will go on Satan we will do the rack and stack.

Sometimes we're doing projects that are very complicated,

you know deployments and sometimes we're doing stuff as simple as iOS software updates on a bunch of switches for a customer because they would rather hold us accountable if something goes wrong then then then you know do the trigger themselves.

Zig Zsiga: [36:28] It's all liability and all that nonsense yet.

A.J. Murray: [36:30] Yeah exactly exactly you know sometimes we're just doing rather swap outs right like you know customer has some really old is ours and they want to upgrade them in the new Forte is our so it's.

See the environments healthy working well so there's not much that you can really trim off the config it's copy cut paste and install the new router and it's.

Network will I think always be there for a value-added reseller no matter who they are and and so but that that's where a junior network engineer can come in do that work.

And then step into or grow into a role such as this associated with an engine.

Zig Zsiga: [37:12] So that's interesting like I don't think I've ever seen a value-added reseller take junior junior guy Network Engineers or have a lot of Junior network of gender roles so that's I think that's a great opportunity what would you tell someone that wants that role what should they do

would you book be your tips tricks suggestions whatever you want to determine eyes that s.

A.J. Murray: [37:33] Well definitely pursue the CCNA working for a.

In particular a Cisco partner you know it's required that you have.

Cisco certified people on staff and so showing that you can obtain and then maintain certifications,

throughout your career will definitely be beneficial to you and the value-added reseller that you work for I have a number of certifications not just Cisco like that I've got,

you know a bunch with juniper I have a few with Silver Peak and some with VMware and you know of course my Cisco ones but you know.

Get it getting that paper and maintaining it will be valuable to the company that you work for because that,

maintains their Partnerships and then it.

Kind of gives the customer a warm feeling to right like when the engineer comes in and their ccnp then there's a certain level of confidence to customer has that the right person is there to do the work so,

that's not everything though it's only a part of it,

definitely being a self-starter being motivated having a lab goes a long way so like it,

having a home lab for me and I have both physical gear and I've got CML to,

I can run through scenarios in my lab before I go and do them in a customer environment and that makes me feel a whole lot better.

Zig Zsiga: [39:00] Well you can practice and figure it out before you get on site and you actually can seem like,

you have some confidence right even if you're doing something basic you have some confidence into it before you go on say hey to go on-site in pretty much make a huge mistake right or receive something wrong or right the config wrong I mean that's

it's not a good situation you're there to be helpful and help that customer so I could I could totally understand that hundred percent any other suggestions comments tips tricks.

I got it.

A.J. Murray: [39:28] You know I'll just say it's a lot of fun like I said you know before when I was working in a customer environment we had maybe two or three major projects in a year,

and it was always the projects that was the fun time because we were digging in with new stuff and and now it's new stuff all the time,

I get to meet new customers I also get to work with a lot of the same customers some of them will ask for me back by name,

I am and it's great to build those relationships get to know those people in the better get to know their environments a little bit better because the better I know their environment the better the suggestions I can make for future improvements and stuff like that for them,

and it's just it's a whole lot of fun and I can't understate that enough it's a ton of fun to do what I do.

Zig Zsiga: [40:13] Nice nice so there's another question I had that I didn't get it I forgot it earlier honestly

I'll be fully transparent I totally forgot it and I wanted to ask you and then I forgot and so now I'm remembering it so it's how I do things so let's talk about these projects you're doing and I'm assuming you're doing some of this work and I'll go maintenance window how do you handle

how do you properly handle network maintenance has.

A.J. Murray: [40:37] Well one thing I like you said I have full control over my schedule,

but of course with things like being its windows I am at the will of the customer right now if they can only do maintenance windows at certain times of the day like seven o'clock on a Saturday evening then that's when I got to do it,

but if I'm not available this Saturday we got to move it to the next Saturday then that's my call to.

Really it comes down to the customer and their comfort level you know if.

If the switch that were or the change that we're making or whatever we're doing is low impact you know I'll tell them that like this pretty low in fact we could probably do this during business hours for,

if it's going to be even medium or high impact then let's just kick it to after hours just to be safe you know kind of thing and so.

When changes like that come up I make sure to you know almost write a script like how this is going to go here's the changes that we need to make,

here is the actual commands that we're going to use to do them if something's not going to go as planned here's our roll back.

If the changes go through successfully here's how we verify success what show commands are we going to use to.

To literally show us that what we did did what we got it.

Zig Zsiga: [41:54] That's awesome so you have a plan a plan of attack and you don't really deviate from that plan of attack I have and this bad so don't deviate from your plan of attack some Tony it's been really.

A.J. Murray: [42:02] Always have a plan you can't go into even the smallest networking to you can't go in without any sort of playing you gotta have a plan.

Zig Zsiga: [42:10] You gotta have a plan.

And I would add this one thing for my own experience just as a tidbit so I always say if you think it's in the take let's say you think that maintenance Windows going to take two hours then you double the maintenance window always double that mean it's whatever.

Say that

so and you know if your four hours tell him you need eight hours because you never know what's going to happen and if you finish early that's great it makes you look really good and if you know say you only need two hours and you tell them you only need two hours and you're like at the

90-minute market like yeah we're not going to be done in two hours so we're going to be another two hours it makes you look really bad so just.

A.J. Murray: [42:50] Yeah I can't tell you that when I first started this position of until the customer like oh this should only take like an hour and we spend 45 minutes just trying to get the remote control to work through WebEx.

Zig Zsiga: [42:58] Yeah yeah especially with a remote like with the covid and pandemic and and doing remote oh gosh I can only imagine all the different hoops and hurdles you're having to draw you know jump through and dive through with fire.

A.J. Murray: [43:12] Because we're with some of these remote Technologies there's like a fancy web app built in right so you can do it right from chrome or Firefox but what they don't tell you is when you launch into that version of the platform you can't do remote control.

Zig Zsiga: [43:22] Awesome.

A.J. Murray: [43:24] So then we get a back out like okay download the app this time don't go through the website.

Zig Zsiga: [43:29] You're like okay well that must be a feature right it's a must be a feature so well do you have any last minute kind of comments questions concerns anything you want to say hints suggestions.

A.J. Murray: [43:44] You know if there's anything that we didn't cover I would I would love for people to reach out ask questions you know I'm loved being a resource for anybody especially if it's someone that wants to get into a role like this.

I'm more than happy to work with them and give them some advice depending on you know their current situation.

Zig Zsiga: [44:03] Nice nice and what certification you're going after again and I know you're studying for something aren't you.

A.J. Murray: [44:09] Yes I am currently studying for the Cisco Dev net.

Zig Zsiga: [44:12] Me too I am horribly behind that that that bandwagon do you have that scheduled I know a few of our colleagues have that scheduled ready but I don't so.

A.J. Murray: [44:21] I do currently have it scheduled for next week but I might kick it down the road just a little bit I'm about three-quarters of the way through the book and I don't want to rush it so.

Zig Zsiga: [44:31] No that's good see got to make those decisions to like I'm not I'm not ready it's real I'm not ready let's move it let's move it a week or two or something you know I know.

A.J. Murray: [44:40] Always schedule it first thing when I start out on the new server otherwise I find that there's just not enough pressure for me to keep going on the studying so that's when I decided I'm going to do something schedule it that way the pressure is there it's on I got a date.

Zig Zsiga: [44:52] I do the same thing so that's a good that's a good takeaway right there right so if you're something you would goal or whatever you're trying to achieve and whatever you're doing you just schedule it right even if you

schedule about three months right or whatever schedule it and then it pushes you to make progress and if you're not ready then push it a little bit but don't don't I would say don't make that an excuse all the time I don't keep

pushing it like a year two years three years I did that with like a lot of my training like,

marathon training I did some marathons years ago and like I would just schedule races I would schedule a 5k every month and just take a 5k I'd schedule a 10K or a half marathon

every quarter and I would just do it man same thing just just admit it motivates you almost like okay well I gotta run today okay I got it or

if you're studying for you know an exam I got to study I have the exam coming up I gotta study so it is what it is you know

well hey man AJ I appreciate you I really do thanks for joining us today where can everyone find you but you told you told us that they could reach out to you so where can they find you

on the internet interwebs.

A.J. Murray: [45:58] Absolutely so on Twitter you can find me I'm at no Blinky Blinky I blog on my blog it's blog dot no Blinky Blinky.com.

And so you know you can hit me up on Twitter my DMs are open you can go to my website and there's contact form there you can drop your information questions comments whatever,

and it'll find my inbox you can email me no Blinky Blinky and gmail.com and then of course you can always find me at the art of network engineering.com as well.

Zig Zsiga: [46:29] Nice nice now we're is the origination of no Blinky Blinky but that's that's cool.

A.J. Murray: [46:34] That is something I'm not going to claim that I created that or coined that phrase because I have heard other Engineers use it.

But it's something that I've always said you know whenever you're troubleshooting some sort of network connectivity issues you know somebody makes a change I'm on the other end like nope no Blinky Blinky what do we gotta do to get that Port up.

Let's figure it out.

Zig Zsiga: [46:58] That's awesome I love it well I appreciate you man everyone that all the links that,

so all the things that A.J just said all those links are going to be in the show notes so it'll be really really quick easy ways to connect to AJ on all his personal content and then also I will create a dedicated link for a one so that's the art of network engineering and that's going to be zigbits dot txt last

a 1 so a is an Apple so I'll do phonetically Alpha Oscar November Echo.

Jo any all right so you can access any of the art of networking art of network engineering content on that link and you'll get all the way there the Discord channel the group's the,

blog post the podcast everything that was a lot sorry all right I'm going to wrap it up buddy if you don't have anything else.

A.J. Murray: [47:47] Now thank you so much for having me think this has been great I really enjoyed it.

Zig Zsiga: [47:50] Yeah yeah I've enjoyed it too buddy all right so hey friends were going to wrap up today's show,

if you liked what we're doing today let us know you can reach out to us on all the socials we can reach out to me I Zig underscored zsiga on Twitter our find zsiga anywhere that we have social media these days you can also find the podcast brand zigbits,

although social medias as well that's zi G bi,

s you can always email me at Zig at zigbits. Tech and I will respond fairly quickly these days you can also join our email list that is a zigbits

Text slash

email all one word to stay in the know on all new content podcast episodes YouTube content courses you know we're working on of course it will be out next year just stay in the no one everything that we're doing

if you have any questions comments concerns let us know and,

this show is episode 76 so the show notes will be 76 at zigbits dot text last seven six and that's it,

until next time bye for now.