Demystifying the Role of The Network Engineer with Carl Zellers – ZDNP 077

ZNDP 077: Demystifying The Role of The Network Engineer with Carl Zellers

Zig Zsiga: [0:00] Demystifying the role of the network engineer with Carl Zellers episode 77.

Welcome back my friends nerds geeks and ziglets out there we have another episode of the zigbits network design podcast where zigabytes are faster than gigabytes,

as always we strive to provide real-world context around technology

I'm zsiga and I'm your host today and today we have an interesting show another demystifying the role of the network engineer

the it is episode 77 and I am joined with my friend Carl Zellers and Carl comes from the community that we've kind of

been in together the last couple months the art of network engineering community so if you don't know about that Community I will put some direct links in the show notes for you to go and join that Community getting that Discord server talk to everyone that's are all working on

different Journeys different certification Journeys different career Journeys and really it is truly a community to get together and help each other so if you haven't heard about that I like to pitch at the beginning here to go and jump on their their Discord server and I will have links to that Discord server

in the show notes but enough of that Carl thanks for joining me today I appreciate it buddy how are you doing.

Carl Zellers: [1:15] And pretty good how about you.

Zig Zsiga: [1:17] I'm doing great yeah what's up.

Carl Zellers: [1:18] Question how much how much would it cost me to get a zsiga bit internet connection at my house.

Zig Zsiga: [1:23] Zig of it yeah so I'm the only one man I'm it's just me yep no I don't think it exists so we can't we can't you know it doesn't exist it's just a now that's a.

Carl Zellers: [1:35] Yeah let me know I'll be the first one to call so.

Zig Zsiga: [1:39] No that's awesome I like it that was a good way of saying that so you know I'd like to play on words right so zigabytes zigbits are fasting gigabytes,

I never I never really put that in perspective though you put me on the spot and that's awesome I'll have to think about a good a good data rate for that.

Carl Zellers: [1:56] Yeah we'll do it.

Zig Zsiga: [1:59] There was a great read yeah so now I'm doing good thanks for asking I appreciate it and I again I appreciate you spending some time with me today and having a conversation about the network engineer role and then also your kind of your journey your experience and what not.

Carl Zellers: [2:11] Yeah for sure man living it learning it experiencing it everything.

Zig Zsiga: [2:16] Everything right it's all.

Carl Zellers: [2:18] All at once every day it's never it's kind of all three in my in my opinion everyday living living it learning it and just existing in it so.

Zig Zsiga: [2:28] Hey that's a really good outlook I think honestly that's a really good real

I'll like you know I think and we're going to dive into some stuff that we didn't talk about and like I've been telling everyone we don't script to this this is what we do like high-level bullets but we don't script anything so we go off lat off the.

Of lib now what is it ad hoc whatever the wording is me I'm bad but we go ad hoc all the time because that's what really matters here.

I think you said something that I think is actually kind of cool is that like you're being real right and I think a lot of people,

potentially the I've dealt with in this industry are not real they kind of fake it they kind of have a an outward appearance the things and the reality reality they're not they're not being real and they're not okay they're not living it and dealing with it and enjoying it so.

And then that's good.

Carl Zellers: [3:14] Yep yep yeah living it living in this kind of you know.

Owning up to the credentials and and the experiences and you know that's the that's the part where it's your on the hook

the keys are in your hand you're driving the break fix your driving the ticket you're driving the call that sort of thing the you know the learning it is it doesn't matter you know if you've been a network engineer,

analysts architect for a day a week a month a year you'd better

be prepared to learn every day so that's the learning it part experiences just kind of having fun you know the Discord and talking to other engineers and that sort of thing so that's kind of how I see it that's kind of how you know I get a good.

Maybe mixed or varying degrees of those kind of three things every day but you know hopefully I see at least a small percentage of each one every day so.

Look forward to.

Zig Zsiga: [4:07] If you're not having fun though like what are you doing right like

today I added these these demystifying the role Series right because I'm like I want to help people find the right role I want them to have fun you know like I want them to love what they do and if you're not going to love everything you do right like that's not

you're not going to you're not going to have a job that you love every single task you have to do on an everyday basis but

if you can love the majority of the things you do in a job I mean like I love my day job and for those that don't know I work at Cisco and it's my day job right.

I had to do some training today that came out of nowhere and it's compliance training I don't want to do this training right I hate doing these trainings it gets in the way it's in the way of the stuff that we want to do,

you know but you got to do it so just saying like you have to you have to love what you do you have to like it yet that fun with it every day.

Carl Zellers: [4:55] Hundred percent.

Zig Zsiga: [4:57] Already starting out with like life lessons in stock man so.

So let's talk about like a little bit about you maybe we can go into some of your experience right I heard from a bird my friend bird here that I'm sorry that was really bad,

that you worked at FedEx for a little bit right before in a totally different field so let's go into kind of your background and and where you started and how you got into it.

Carl Zellers: [5:23] All right let's do this so so here's the deal I am one of the people that,

you know throughout throughout high school and those Early College Years didn't really have you know I didn't really have much of a grasp of Technology it was sort of a.

Far off abstract concept to me you know had a couple typing classes and stuff and you know knew how to use like a word editor but it wasn't,

it just wasn't it's not that it didn't interest me I just wasn't really aware of it wasn't really on my radar so.

Finish high school started in College Community College didn't really know what I want to do so,

went in took some General Ed stuff for a year or so

um was working FedEx the whole time after after high school so was taking classes General Ed stuff you know my going to transfer one day I don't know you know just kind of meeting meeting those requirements,

the basic requirement always be moving forward right don't,

take steps back you know try not to flounder too much or you know so just trying to move forward.

[6:35] So I did with varying levels of success and interest So eventually I you know it got to the point where I needed to kind of pick something and go that direction so

I did initially gotten an associate's degree in construction management.

Estimation I love building stuff at love working with my hands you know how things work that sort of thing so kind of felt natural did it.

Got a got it like I guess it was an internship it was really kind of a

partnership with the school that was a paid position in addition to continuing school and working at FedEx at night and I realized I kind of

I don't know it just it didn't do much for me so I thought well let's let's kind of rethink this.

[7:23] I still had all these these amazing opportunities afforded to me you know I can still keep going to community college and FedEx was paying you know doing tuition reimbursement the time and I have you know a job that made me money,

so I kind of took a step back from that professionally meaning I kind of left that,

that role that I was in stayed on the FedEx went back to school.

Yep kind of dipped around through the zoo the General Ed stuff again you know for a couple semesters trying to figure it out.

Started started looking into kind of the aviation stuff since I was working I was working at the airport at the time and I thought maybe I can make a career out of this.

What I normally do I.

Next thing I take sign rolled some classes take some classes you know see if I like it then I'll finish whatever program is out in front of me.

That one I didn't finish I I did one semester and kind of got my I don't want to say I shouldn't say got my head on straight the airline industry seems kind of volatile,

I mean they're you know airlines are trading hands every 5 minutes so I thought you know,

I don't know maybe maybe something else right.

Zig Zsiga: [8:37] Yes so I mean you went from construction right to Airline right is that.

Carl Zellers: [8:44] Well it was basically was a program to get an A and P which is airframe power plant.

Technician side of Aviation so maintenance essentially.

Zig Zsiga: [8:55] Okay and then now you work in.

Carl Zellers: [8:57] A practical yeah a practical thing working with your hands you know.

Troubleshooting problems a system of how things work whether it be Electronics or software or aerodynamic it didn't matter it was you know here's here's kind of like,

this system this thing this set of processes that work in conjunction with,

physics or with you know carpentry or whatever it is so I like that's where my mind goes and that's kind of where I tried to stay right so.

You know fast forward a couple couple semesters then I start thinking well.

You know I started in like a management program with FedEx and you know I don't know maybe maybe I just got a Bachelor's in business and kind of carve out a career here because I'd already put in about

for five years at the time and you know it was kind of feeling the weight of my seniority and felt good about that and,

good company big company Stable Company those are kind of three really big things when you kind of don't know what you want to do and you have that that's sort of a you know.

Zig Zsiga: [9:59] But huge yeah I mean that's huge I mean you been there for five years or so you know.

Carl Zellers: [10:05] Momentum's gaining yeah you're yeah yeah yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [10:08] Management level eventually then director BP you know what all happens.

Carl Zellers: [10:12] Yeah that's that's that's all on the horizon right.

Zig Zsiga: [10:15] Yeah but was it what you wanted to do though that's the question.

Carl Zellers: [10:18] Yeah yeah and that's so that's you know you start thinking about one day I want to get married have kids you know have a life and

you know what kind of what kind of career what kind of what kind of business what kind of industry what kind of thing like mental capacity do I want to expend every day or be a part of that allows me to still have you know a really good family life and a lot of freedom and a lot of

physicality left I guess you'd say that you know FedEx is a hard job man so you know I.

Zig Zsiga: [10:48] Body intense right it's hard on your body.

Carl Zellers: [10:50] Yeah yeah later on I became a courier and was doing the you know in and out of the truck every day for a couple hundred miles drop in packages and stuff.

Fun kept me in great shape kept my mind sharp was always thinking

real efficiency kind of thoughts and you know so again all still moving forward that's

the theme was always moving forward it's okay to have plans so K to have you know thoughts about other you know should I go this way she'll go that way but,

you know at the time the time we're talking right now relatively it's like early 20s you know friends are graduating college people are starting to really you know hits try and careers and stuff and I'm kind of sitting here with a,

a little bit out in front of me but you know not not a solid solid plan so.

[11:39] Yeah so I start thinking you know maybe there's something else out there and a good friend of mine was doing a computer science degree at the time and.

He roommate of mine and it got me thinking again you know hey,

this it stuff this this computer science stuff like what he's showing me when he's talking about the things he's doing these still are processes these are procedures these are you know functioning blocks of

things that work together in conjunction have dependencies but ultimately have this overarching.

Paradigm with which they work together and that's again that's to whether it's wood or mechanics or it that's kind of that's it kind of fits in that box so I thought well you know here we go again guess what I did.

Enrolled in some courses started to see what it was all about.

Zig Zsiga: [12:35] We got your feet wet right you got your feet wet.

Carl Zellers: [12:37] Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [12:37] And that's the theme though is that it has the same items for your perspective your personality that really fit right no matter each one of these are different,

different fields different Technologies different verticals even but like it has the same emphasis on the skill sets that you have.

Carl Zellers: [12:57] And the coolest thing about this part is you hit on it earlier you know the journey into network engineering and what is network engineering and that sort of thing and,

no I didn't know that at the time I enrolled in a so I look through the community the same Community College I start thumbing through the you know the index of classes and then

and programs and here's one that's called it it was I think it's called like Network routing it was a certificate program so it only needed like

25 credits or something like that versus the 60 or so you need for an associate's whatever it is so I thought okay yeah I'll you know I'll do that I'll get a certificate out of it

this is now this is a community college like a college certificate not a.

Zig Zsiga: [13:37] Not like a certificate from a vendor right like at this.

Carl Zellers: [13:39] Right right exactly.

Zig Zsiga: [13:41] Yeah I know what you mean and I don't know if anyone else knows that but there are certificates you can get at colleges but they're not like an associate degree and they're not a bachelor's degree it's like normally it's.

Carl Zellers: [13:49] And it's not like a CCNA yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [13:53] It's not a CCNA or ccie or it is totally decoupled from the vendor certifications that we know.

Carl Zellers: [14:00] It's just a thinner program from a college credit standpoint so that you can achieve something without having to go you know maybe through a full formal program with all these other electives and stuff so so you know,

it looks thin it looks narrow I don't know what it is you know it to me is a computer,

yeah it to me at the time was hey here's a computer we have you know it has a problem you know and I'm like I don't know so in

anyway ended up getting into this network routing certificate program which was I think 10 or 12 classes like a Linux class and some math classes and the and what ultimately.

The network curriculum the network Centric classes were actually done through Cisco's networking Academy.

Really know much about this go at the time I didn't know that you know their market share their their vendor status amongst you know the rest in the in the industry so kind of fell into this right.

Zig Zsiga: [14:55] Yeah man you fell right into it because.

Carl Zellers: [14:57] Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [14:58] Opportunity not even knowing anything right this is a great opportunity wow.

Carl Zellers: [15:02] And I so I get into it and I'm taking classes in person and it has supplemental stuff like your packet tracer and all online assignments and everything but I'm in class have a great teacher.

And you know it starts clicking you know these things are these protocols these processes there there

they're from a start there from start to finish you know they work together they work in conjunction to form a network so all these things I start it starts making sense yeah okay so you can't have a network without

IP addresses and here's several ways to delve IP addresses to hosts on the network and,

here's how you would interpret it you know and it's like okay this makes sense it's no different than building a deck need a frame.

[15:42] You know a guardrail you need some steps you need so you need all these things right that comprise a network so

from conceptually that made a lot of sense the individual pieces themselves made a lot of sense to me okay I see where I see why that's necessary you know they teach you about deep when you first learn about DNS okay so public servers have IP addresses right.

And you know the common the theme is you know you don't have a Rolodex of IP addresses right you know you use DNS it,

you know dynamically looks up the name does name resolution if.

Redirect you to that IP address so you start hearing about all these different pieces and it's still kind of at this I mean young real real green,

still abstract there's a lot of big big gray areas there's a lot of missing spots but I'm intrigued so continuing on with the program fell in love with Cisco and.

Yeah it's just been kind of like this ever since slow steady trajectory upwards yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [16:42] Potentially upwards you know.

Carl Zellers: [16:43] Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [16:45] Role so so that is that is I know we spent some time on that right and I think the reason I wanted to focus on it is because you didn't know what you wanted to do and I take that for granted,

I take that for granted because I knew very young that I was in the work in it I knew when I was 10 that I was going to be an it in some fashion I never had that that,

situation that you had where you had to figure out what you want to do and so for me it was like oh I'm going to go on it like this is this is done

done deal like this now at the time was programming not networking but like again it was you know I went into programming my degree is computer science.

Carl Zellers: [17:24] I wanted to be a pirate that.

That's what I want to do simple aspirations just a sword.

Zig Zsiga: [17:29] I'm just in Urbana.

I played too many video games and I wanted to code and I wanted to make my own video games isn't that like every kid's dream though make their own video games and that's how I want to make my own video games and so it's like I want to learn how to code oh.

But.

Carl Zellers: [17:49] What you said was here's the Intriguing part about it is when you know you know not kind of knowing what you want to do and kind of experimenting and kind of bouncing down the hallway of these different you know construction or this or Amy all these things right.

And then kind of where we left off was you know effectively the transition became.

I've said this on before but I actually had with FedEx I had essentially a very big.

[18:21] Role and.

Profession changing offer letter in my hand the very same day week that I had my entry level It Roll offer letter in hand.

Both enhance the same time drastically different pay drastically different futures.

And you know luckily the time it was just me and my wife we were dating at the time you know so there we didn't have a lot of we have a lot of,

civility you know with making that decision but we didn't have a lot of liability I should say in making that decision so.

You know I've said this kind of once or twice to you know here and there work smarter not harder and that that's that's what drove that decision number one I really did genuinely,

fall in love with you know the Curve

networking and and everything and I knew that's what I wanted to do shortly after getting into it so it was an easy decision it wasn't as hard decision it was,

but on some levels you know you know working those jobs before you get into it and doing those things that you have to do and

you know sometimes they are hard to give up even even if it's you know not quite what you want.

Zig Zsiga: [19:34] I think a lot of people would have a hard time giving that up do I mean you were again you were someone that was,

you were put you put your time and effort into FedEx right you put in your time and effort into that that that path already and you have this offer letter in front of you and they had money in that offer letter that was substantially more than starting out in an it roll a junior right ear or whatever right so.

Carl Zellers: [19:56] You are a hundred percent correct on that.

Zig Zsiga: [19:57] But so you know the moral of that story is that money is not everything.

Even today like I will be the first to say money isn't everything now my wife will say it is everything but like it's a different Dynamic right no I think that that's great so thanks for going through that process right so where are you today where do you work today.

Carl Zellers: [20:17] So I work at a company called nwn it they're based out of the Northeast.

A lot of what a managed services and essentially everything it on a kind of a managed services and called Consulting basis so pretty much anything yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [20:37] So you're pretty much a jacket or a jack of what is that all I'm going to butcher that that saying.

Carl Zellers: [20:41] My my my my my role my title,

is Senior Solutions engineer which you know

I really know you know network engineering you know that's a title it's also kind of a space to be in I've never really been

real real crazy about titles but yeah I mean I boil that all down take my title and you boy and I boil it down and it means.

I'll do whatever I can to help technically on my team,

and I'm always ready to learn from others on my team that's all it is that's all it is now if that happens to be helping out with Meraki Wireless

five minutes and then over here with you know Ubiquiti router over here for 10 minutes and then back over here you know for an a essay for a little while and then back over here with a Palo Alto it doesn't matter.

[21:37] Network engineering at its core is just fundamentals of networking applied across different vendor,

you is or CL eyes or whatever so that's kind of how I treated I have a title yes I have a job yes but I really do look at it

as you know help and help and be held within the context of a team

obviously there's reactive support proactive support upgrades maintenance that sort of stuff that's kind of mundane but but when you you know when you think about the role and think about what you do in terms of the title it's that's that's how you that's kind of how I see it just,

just a team member man ready to help ready to learn ready to dig in and learn something new or fix something so.

Zig Zsiga: [22:19] See the other guy I need to go to whenever I have a problem I need help.

Carl Zellers: [22:22] Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [22:23] Hey I got it I got it so something else I want to I want to highlight here is that like in that beginning process right where you were going to school and learning.

About you know construction and then you went to school and learn for a little bit about I'd coming to not say it right but Airline stuff.

Aviation maintenance sorry I knew I was going to make the mistake.

Now to downplay that aviation maintenance got it and then you went back to school and then you learned about it so it sounds like you have this underlying almost like Drive passion to learn.

Carl Zellers: [22:58] Yes yes it's cheesy maybe it's cliche maybe it's it's it could be a lot of things but one thing it's not is it's not.

Disingenuous I I say I'm a lifelong learner it's on my LinkedIn,

it's usually one of the first things out of my mouth within the context of a team or you know something where it's kind of Bio related that's just that's just that's who I am that's that,

it represents a willingness to learn it represents a willingness to contribute represents a willingness to help other you know that that's just what it is.

Zig Zsiga: [23:37] No so I think that's.

Carl Zellers: [23:38] Necessarily you know certification Centric or you know read as much as I can or video as much as I can or it's beyond that it's just elevating you know and by way of experience elevating by way of reading or watching videos or whatever you know.

Zig Zsiga: [23:53] I know exactly you know it's you're going to always learn and it's almost like you learn everyday right it doesn't matter if it's a certification or if it's a course or.

Carl Zellers: [24:03] Poor how to better communicate with email or,

or communicate with I am or how to better manage you know multiple tickets communication streams were or better effectively you know

I don't know not Mentor but you know help within the context of a team and not the tract and not you know leave hell yeah it's crazy yeah but there's there's there's a million things you can learn everyday.

Zig Zsiga: [24:24] Yes I was looking up so I'm in the same boat I don't know if I call myself a lifelong learner I probably do self-identify with that I don't know if I've actually ever said it out loud.

I learn something new every day like I go out of my way to learn something new everyday now might be technical might be Cisco might be certification focused,

cases it's not in most cases it's personality and characteristics Focus today in just an example because I'm going to give it real examples always you know I'll be honest and upfront and transparent

today I was learning or researching how to become a better podcast host like that's.

Picking up today because I want to make sure I'm a great podcast host I don't think I am I think I fail a little bit here and there.

Carl Zellers: [25:04] I think I think you are I think you.

Zig Zsiga: [25:06] Look at that look at that I got,

one verse of the things I am no I think I could improve right honestly and I think that that self-identification saying that hey you know I need some help and I need to I need to work on it right and I knew learn so that just an example of something that that I'm

in today and it's not technical right it's not I'm not in the CLI working on a ccie or CCNA or ccmp you know in books I'm trying to figure out how to better myself in some other way though.

But I think that goes into a follow-on to this though right we're going to have this conversation really about the network engineering role in demystifying it and one of the things I would like to harp on a little bit is that,

you have to learn like that that is that is legit the whole requirement of anything in it these days is that it is such a fast-paced changing

environment that if you are not able to learn at that a relatively Fast Pace meaning that if you can't learn like one new thing a day on average I would say that's probably realistic.

It's not it's not going to be a successful situation I don't think what are your thoughts I'm going to put that out there though.

Carl Zellers: [26:16] Yeah I think I think you'll in large part end up overwhelmed a lot I think you'll end up feeling a lot of unnecessary pressure,

you know in regards to what you're saying you know if you're not able to kind of want to say I shouldn't say keep that pace but if you're not.

Zig Zsiga: [26:31] It's average an average.

Carl Zellers: [26:31] Client or yeah if you're if you're not if you're not maintaining that I think you're you're probably in like I said for a world of,

of stress and unnecessary duress I guess you could say.

Zig Zsiga: [26:46] Yes I'll give an example right as always because that I'm you know the dev net certifications came out right and they came out the beginning of 2020.

So so they came out and in my head I'm like I have a computer science degree

subscribe it some effort for me to go and take these and I'll knock them out so I put it off put it off put it off

and here we are we're recording this in December just so everyone's clear December 2020 it's going to air in January of 2021 it's going to be published then so in currently in December,

I looked actually last week in November on Thanksgiving break I looked and I was like yeah I can't I can't take this thing.

Just I did not I did not put enough effort into it and I can't just you know I can't just take a couple of hours and review the blueprint be like yeah I got this no no I need to put some true time in and as you do that everyday dedicate an hour,

and learn right I mean I just--that's yeah.

Carl Zellers: [27:44] And that's that's kind of it's funny that you mention that because I you know I'll take time I tend to take more time sporadic time,

small Sprint time kind of slots during the day for things like like that like python is a good example Linux is a good example,

two things I don't use on a daily basis to things that.

Yes they do adhere to a curriculum that leads to a certification and several different capacities or like CompTIA or or Cisco or Juniper but that's not really the,

the point the point is to some days it's to cycle through something to make sure it's solid.

[28:25] Some days it's too it's too you know Branch out and do something in either one of those python or Linux maybe I might look at some python 2 code and see if I can get it to three,

simple,

I mean for me I'm very big you know I don't I don't know a lot about python so I kind of just I get a working knowledge some days I'm a reverse engineering something that does work some days I'm literally trying to you know build build that plane in the in mid-flight

just like Linux you know I mean Linux you know you set up a Linux VM somewhere and you can pretty much do anything to it you want,

you know Passat production you can break it you can mess it up and guess what those are critical learning opportunities.

So those are kids like you said like those are some of the thing you know the little things you do,

have to necessarily be chipping away at some massive skill you know lab or or you know nuke or exam or something like that it's for me at least and then my in my view it's.

Some days you know I love VPN I love all things VPN.

I don't do dmvpn everyday sometimes I like to go back and just slam 3/4 routers down and CNL and do it you know,

do it by hand try to do it without referencing anything by hand you know and and those are that that's a let's a thing oh well you already learned that you took that testing and you know you pass that test well that's true,

but sometimes I need to relearn sometimes I need to reinforce what I have learned you know consider that learning.

Zig Zsiga: [29:54] Yeah I think it is to it.

Carl Zellers: [29:56] Little bit everything yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [29:57] It's imperative because you don't use those skill sets every day like one of the things I don't use every day as multicast yeah I know multicast from an MP from a

CCI level both routes which and service provider those are my kind of bread and butter but and I know some of that stuff still right but it's like it's like okay I know this command exists

but I don't know the syntax I know how to do it and I know where to find I know exactly where it is and the reference documentation but I just don't remember the actual syntax.

Carl Zellers: [30:25] That's a good that's a good jump off so what would you do in that City if you were learning and you wanted to refresh something like that would you go straight to a reference talk or would you try to bang through the question the command the syntax the command syntax help,

like what would you do.

Zig Zsiga: [30:41] Yeah me personally I will because I'm a lab I like the lab and so I would I would throw a lab together and whatever way so you know if it's CML or Eve or,

my favorite and I it's before those existed honestly is just running it in my virtual environment with csr's and I OS X RVs and

you know whatever flavor of your devices and I would just play around for a little bit and if I couldn't I would set a time limit and I talked about this to at some point so it's a great question

I appreciate the question I would block myself into a specific time period 30 minutes 60 Minutes whatever it is because.

Carl Zellers: [31:17] You can solve or implemented or yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [31:19] My personality I will I will literally have Tunnel Vision on that specific thing because it's interesting to me,

and I will not stop and it'll be the end of the day like it'll be eight hours later like legit and I'll be like and it won't be like I didn't get it like I'll have it working but I've gone like the next level and to the next level and you know I've just I've just surpassed,

by ten times what I was looking to do to begin with busy just it just intrigues me but yeah I would lock myself in,

30 minutes 60 minutes and then if I if I didn't get to that point I was looking for I would look it.

Carl Zellers: [31:54] Yeah cool

yeah similar answer yeah I mean I you know it depends like I'm just kind of thinking in my head as you're talking you know if I were to do something like like AAA I don't do everyday right but I

I could probably get in and get on the command line and get that get that sorted something like maybe snmpv3 and 15. Code that

I'm you know I'm able to bang around a little bit but I might fear that I'm missing one of those key slices and then I would go to a reference doc or something so I guess it kind of depends but but the same the same range true with exactly what you said challenge you essentially are challenging yourself which is,

the whole point of it to learn that's how you learn.

Zig Zsiga: [32:33] But I I mean I just saw everyone was aware like I don't memorize the commands like I might know them from memory just because I was doing them a lot but I do more.

Have a configuration template because it's just like I'm not going to remember everything that's out there I mean look at one protocol look at bgp and all the different nerd knobs and features,

conserve bgp I know BG be pretty well and I don't know all the features and functions by heart I just don't like it's just too,

so I definitely have like a template configuration document that I would leverage that has really explanations of the commands because,

you know I've already looked at the reference architecture reference architectures are the reference document I've already read the doc CD or whatever we call it these days right.

I don't need to read it again I want to write it in my own words in my own documentation so if I'm doing something as basic as switch Port access.

Such products as revealing whatever you know access VLAN which I happen to know by heart I hope I did I don't know if I messed it up.

Maybe maybe I did.

You know I you know I can take that that command if I didn't actually know what it did I would actually write in my documents say this is what it does specifically because again I want to make sure I understand it right like,

can I can I can read I can tell someone else what it means.

Carl Zellers: [33:55] So if I'm hearing you correctly,

you're a lot like me and that you probably have this massive massive 300 tab notepad plus plus collection,

of knowledge and you know version specific syntax and all these things yeah that's that's exactly.

Zig Zsiga: [34:15] That's probably accurate I use notepad notepad,

Plus for a long time I don't know if it's even on the Mac anymore I was on a Windows before and I had to move all those files over to my Mac so I mean they're I mean they're all in different folders and I look I'm like anal about my organization structure like I have

the project the you know what I'm working on the device the iOS version or whenever whatever OS version all the way down into that route revolute release level and then here's all the configuration templates for everything then oh yeah.

Carl Zellers: [34:48] Yeah used to be people used to say you know back in the day they say oh you know there's an app for that there's an app for that I have a notepad for that.

You're looking at you're looking for you know you're working on stuck working on the pics and old a s a code and you can't figure on that guess what I have a notepad for that because I've been in your shoes and I made no sense nice made sure to say that notepad so.

Zig Zsiga: [35:12] But like something like that like and I know we're kind of going off topic or we're going on this little long but like a pics like who in the right mind has a picks information anymore right like it does even I mean I work for Cisco does Cisco even have a picks documentation anymore you know to look up.

Don't know.

Carl Zellers: [35:27] It just says it just says sweep that under the rug and move on.

Zig Zsiga: [35:30] Hair right look like and so if you don't have that documentation if you're still running a pig's eye I don't know what's going on but you're still.

Carl Zellers: [35:36] Yeah you got you got other you got other issues but yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [35:39] So let's jump into you know what is the network engineer role in terms of your opinion and what your.

Carl Zellers: [35:51] So I would my opening remarks would be.

Kind of like I said alluded to earlier said earlier I firmly believe.

[36:01] As a network from a network engineer perspective if you if you grasp the fundamentals and you could you could say it's,

eighty percent of you know all the fundamentals are 50 if you understand the fundamentals the building blocks of networks and how networking works I think,

I think that's what it is you have an engineering mindset you understand that things work in conjunction

there's obvious and not so obvious dependencies so that's that's the context piece of it you have the fundamentals you kind of see things within the context of what they are don't you know I think people tend to get,

enamored with you know the title network engineer and some of the Nuance that it may carry as far as you know big projects and very critical outages and things like that but you boil it down its fundamentals

networking network security scare you and and you just build up from there and I'm not even talking like OSI model.

Forget that this is this is just networking fundamentals you need these pieces you have this you know and you go up and.

I think you know you can you can really do yourself a lot of favors by thinking of it that way so that number one you don't build it up to something that it's not or,

when you get there then it's not what you think it was and and at the same time you know you always start at this this even Keel and kind of work up there a problem it's that's just that's just what it is to me I you know hey Carl can you jump in and take a look at this ubiquity router sure.

[37:29] Do I am I an expert at ubiquity no but.

I understand networking fundamentals and I can I can kind of you know get through some things and get my bearings and and start to understand okay truth be told you know it's just syntax difference between an HP,

Cisco switch or,

yes A and A Paulo I mean it's I understand the fundamentals I know I know what the issue is right it's DHCP I know how to fix that in a essay I know how to fix that in the GUI of Palo Alto I you know so you think about it on those terms

have your fundamentals in your in your in your basket right keep those close to you keep those Sharp

and you just kind of from there it's a UI different a GUI difference it's a syntax difference it's a slight limitation of a vendor who's not quite mature yet I mean you know it's that's just kind of how I see it I try not to think of it as,

too big or complex of a thing.

It sits on fundamentals and the rest is kind of experience or you know you can kind of equate things to each other and and that sort of thing and work through stuff.

Zig Zsiga: [38:37] Now that's great and I agree with everything you said totally I don't ya think that's awesome.

Carl Zellers: [38:44] A lot of people said you know how to Google you start to learn how to Google right oh my networks down you're not going to Google my networks down right you're going to Google

I can't get an IP address or you know something more intelligent something more mature that's a simple example but the fact remains is that again you reference those fundamentals and now you're starting to

Google better you're starting to

narrow your search to certain reference documents whether it's design implementation or configuration whatever you know and that's that's in that is engineering that.

Understand what's supposed to be you know it's not you need that middle piece of why it's not.

Getting better at that is effectively you know becoming a better engineer.

Zig Zsiga: [39:26] So it's a kind of iterative process right like it's

and I'm going to add some some wording here in my head and I'm curious if this is going to resonate and if it's going to change my own definition here because

something that you just said really kind of sparked an idea in my head and the idea is that you know as a network engineer

you have to be able to learn something right because we talked about learning and how critical learning is but be able to learn something but then yet the after you've learned it,

to you have to be able to take that thing whatever that is and I'm being think is very very generic right but you have to take that item and now you have to apply it somehow,

and that's an iterative process right like you learn something okay now I got that in my wheelhouse I understand it let's pick something right let's say ospf okay I don't know anything about ospf let me go learn ospf

okay I know SPF now now I can leverage ospf well I don't know something else about whatever technology I don't know dmvpn.

I don't understand what you said it earlier so I threw it out there right,

okay I need I need some sort of VPN technology I don't know anything about the pn's let me go look up the pn's now it's a very iterative type of process until now you know these things right and then the next time you go through it you don't necessarily look up ospf

or vpns right you know it now so a little different and so that that network engineer role requires the ability to not just learn,

but quickly comprehend what they learned and apply it.

Carl Zellers: [40:55] Yep and here's a really good simple example that I like to use for what you just said as far as the practical application piece like let's say you and I is Engineers both understand DHCP,

now it's quick off-the-cuff it's you have a DHCP server you have a DHCP client write PHP client reaches out

gets a reply gets an IP blah blah blah I'm right,

so you know in skip the formalities of the Act and the Discover and all that let's just say we understand the fundamentals of DHCP is that a server reach our client reaches out to a server server replies

DCP right so here's a fundamental DCP.

[41:33] What if your DHCP and this is because this is a common troubleshooting kind of thing when you start especially when you start learning I'm going to spoil it here with IP helper,

knowing the fundamentals right so I can't get an IP address I can't get an IP address but I can see on the topology I see that I have but the cheapie server and a router,

and then I have my PC connected to my router I have a DHCP server I don't understand what's going on okay,

go all the way back to fundamentals of DHCP right what won't happen it's not going to propagate that discover request right,

so that's a really simple so then like you said iterative okay the next iteration is learning that to unicast that DHCP discovery

IP helper right so now there's another layer and that's the practical application of it if I'm sitting here looking at the apology and I see a DHCP server router and a in a virtual PC or little PC right

it's not getting an IP address your mind will play tricks on you and it will say you have a server.

And you have you have a host and from that router you can ping that DHCP server why is your client you know why is your client I getting IP,

and it's just again it's not you have to have one more layer of thought on top of all there's a there's an act there's a discover there's a offer there's a request it goes beyond that,

and you really have to do this,

I don't want to say higher level practical application but a more comprehensive level of practical application and understand so it's simple it's not leaving that you know that routing domain.

Zig Zsiga: [43:02] Well he goes back to what you said

you have to learn the fundamentals right like the basics really in the theory the protocol Theory right and know that protocol Theory and not forget it as you go into higher levels because it still applies it still applies,

it's not going away so if you have DHCP like you said that you have the way that you have it.

It still applies the theory the the fundamentals the basics.

Carl Zellers: [43:29] It's still DHCP.

Zig Zsiga: [43:31] Yes exactly.

Carl Zellers: [43:32] We've seen messages but but right.

Zig Zsiga: [43:36] Yeah and then if you add like DHCP snooping or whatever like it's still like that's another iterative process so I think that's a great takeaway right there.

Yeah so the next question I have is kind of like in your because you work at MSP so I'm assuming I'm just I can't I said I shoot me instead of assuming so I was.

Um so you know how do you work on projects at the MSP I'm assuming those projects but if there aren't you know just tell me if they're not that's fine but I'm assuming there are some projects you have to work on how do you handle projects how do you make sure they get done all that kind of stuff.

Carl Zellers: [44:07] Yep so sure you know throughout my tenure on it's been kind of a cyclical process where

myself and sometimes.

Like a systems engineer systems administrator would be involved from on this project from inception all the way through implementation so effectively what it looks like is.

Meeting with project managers pre-sales Engineers that sort of thing and then us the engineering side and these are kind of the project kickoff if you will

the

leading up to kind of a last chance to talk through the logistics talk through this the schema the design the licensing the

tear of hardware at different points in the network right so we're assessing all that we're making sure pre-sales and engineering and ultimately the

Frontline support we're all going to be on the same page it's going to be a serviceable product it matches you know let's shouldn't say it matches our portfolio but it's a it's effective offering that we can.

[45:11] Deliver Implement support long-term and then ideally you know layer additional services on top moving forward

to better service that customer so

again you pull it back all the way to pre to the pre kickoff pre-implementation kind of project work where were you know just going through making sure we got the correct amount of VPN licenses we've got the you know sufficient level of of hardware for,

deep packet inspection on several.

Since points of a policy enforcement or inspection in the network we've got an ample amount of APs you know are we have enough peoe power wattage throughout the the switch Network to power the pr the aps that sort of thing we're just taking a high-level look making sure everything is there

it's not over scoped it's not under scope we don't have any

pinch points or pain points as far as you know possible physical location or anything like that access those sort of things so then you start moving more into the.

Like the site survey area where you're actually you know if it's not Greenfield obviously you might be forklifting some of the network none of the network or all of the.

[46:21] So that's where things get a little sticky you know now we've got to play with another administrative domain,

now we were the only administrative domain but we need still play with some Legacy equipment or some existing equipment so there's some there's some kind of interesting,

pre provisioning processes that happen on that in that site survey phase

provisioning is fun that's you know I mean you're slamming down configs whether it be in a cloud controller you know like Meraki or for zero touch provisioning or your you know your your your building out notepads with with.

You know massive switch configs and routers and stuff and and our firewalls that's the fun part for me I like the configuration I like I like kind of.

Having the high level in my mind and really you know delving out what I think would work like let's just take a standard switch Port config for a medium-sized Enterprise right.

[47:18] We're going to do these cover a dude we're going to do.

Port security going to do DHCP snooping so I'll sit here and I'll you know I'll work with my one interface and I'll I'll kind of put all the the nuts and bolts in there as far as what I want my standard config to be and I enjoy that,

and then you know then you start moving on to you know the kind of the painful administrative documentation

asset tagging all that kind of stuff which hopefully you know the network engineer level hopefully you've got some Network analysts or some interns that you can shove that off on and,

bill bill bill be happy to learn you know and it'll be great and then you know.

In my role specifically especially in the past couple years I've been remote so,

I've been working a lot with on-site field engineer smart hands if you will so for the actual

you know deployment cut over implementation physical hands on cabling that sort of stuff so that's pretty cool to be remote kind of wash that you know just sit and watch and wait wait for those pings to start or wait for those for those lights go green on in the cloud now.

[48:25] But no just just just a nice couple beers.

So yeah just you know you have confidence you've seen it done before you know it's you know two minutes and 38 seconds before that switch is going to start paying in because of the heavy that's just how ubiquity is and you know that you've gone through that pain once so.

[48:45] That's fun there's obviously some

day 0 deployment day fixes patches things that have to be corrected those are to be expected and then you know you start creeping in on on a very important phase,

kind of one of my I shouldn't say least,

at the documentation phase you know start building out some Network diagrams Visio and draw and start writing up some abstract,

you know KB stuff it would ultimately become tribal knowledge if someone.

[49:19] Integral in that you know pre-project kickoff through provisioning through deployment kind of experiences and are able to

you know provide those those knowledge base articles those those those insights.

Because that's ultimately what serves Frontline support you know once that's transition from that you know sometimes it's a couple days sometimes it's a week that you really have to hand hold a new deployment,

before you kind of just turn it over to support because you know support does what hi you know thanks for calling in WN what's your problem you know,

that's not that's not necessarily pertinent in that honeymoon phase so you try to do as much documentation as much lead work for those for those,

you know those.

All necessary help desk service desk tiered knock support whatever you want to call it so they can effectively digest that and and really get you know get whatever resolution needs to happen happen fast so.

Of the full sweep MSP and a yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [50:26] He would do a great run down there and honestly that was awesome and I let you die didn't cut you off I just kind of let you do your thing that was great,

a lot of great Project work and a lot of good takeaways there so on the project side of things I want to move on to something a little bit that's that's relatively similar I think like so in your role today do you manage multiple projects at the same time.

Carl Zellers: [50:48] Yep and usually in different phases so that makes it in my opinion

in my experience in my opinion where you want to call it it's a little bit easier to have you know two to three projects or a handful in kind of those different phases it's a little bit easier for me to kind of switch gears,

and it's more interesting to write

you know I might do some some some mind-numbing spec sheet data sheet kind of delving on the front of the new project for you know

is this going to is this going to handle the capacity you know or we've done baselines is this going to be sufficient is that going to be you know it's kind of like man just staring at the screen,

you know and then you might get to jump into some you know some of those days zero day one kind of you know,

this was a little bit Rocky on deployment we need to fine-tune it we need to you know iron it out so you get into a little bit of like real world troubleshooting or real-world finessing you know so yes multiple projects ideally,

and usually at different phases I don't think I can't really remember a time where I've been sitting on you know 3,

three project kickoff meetings at the same day you know for for it's usually staggered so that's usually a logistical.

Zig Zsiga: [52:04] All right so that they're staggered what if you like how do you manage a deadlines and those situations.

Carl Zellers: [52:10] Actually most of those its expectation setting with project managers in the very beginning so that's a crucial part of that very early stages,

you know you got to be realistic but you got to you got to kind of even as a technical Resource Network Engineer Network architect Network insert you know,

adjectives here you do have to do yourself your colleagues and your non-technical,

adjacent people project managers management those you know sales Engineers customer success people you've got to do those people a good.

A good service if you will die

you know Fair expectation setting so that's something that comes with experience that's something that comes within the context of you know are you on a skeleton crew do you have you know other other seniors and network engineer colleagues that are flexible that are kind of also,

in that project mix where you can freely kind of jump in and help and so a little bit its contextual but it really does start with expectation setting.

Zig Zsiga: [53:12] Okay no that's good that's good I was curious like for me it's always I always have competing deadlines I have,

something do this week and I'm going to do next week like and it's their loved ones due Friday this week when the zoo

Monday next week and it's I have to split my time I have no other way they're not going to be successful if I don't,

but again the deadlines are there and they're always there and it goes to another question that we kind of outline to is like how do you manage competing priorities and a network engineer role so for you how do you manage those those priorities that come up.

Carl Zellers: [53:46] You know break fix stuff maintenance you know when you talk about the general day-to-day like let's just say technical activities technically

Centric technical technically Centric activities obviously there's there's you know there's the there's the landscape of customer and Industry that the customers especially in the MSP side

you know not not not all outages for the same,

you know I hate to say that out loud but that's the truth of it not all outages in the same you know and sometimes you know patches upgrades and things like that or actually more critical than outages you know because it,

it's a security breach its vulnerability it's a it's a way in you know so

again it boils down to context obviously it's a canned answer just saying will prioritize what's what has the highest priority but

it kind of depends you know in a network engineer role you do touch security you do Touch Wireless you do touch you know routed networks that,

that's kind of I want to say are distributed so there's a lot more you let's call it users right and points so,

it really just depends I mean you know sometimes it boils down to this is a security patch these this all these access point have to be patched ASAP.

[55:08] And that's just the end of it you know will still meet an SLA for an outage we still have three hours and we can double up or triple up engineering efforts on that as soon as we get this critical critical patch implemented.

Across 500 APS or four networks or 10 you know 10 controllers whatever the case may be so.

Zig Zsiga: [55:28] No that's good that's good I think I think there's a situation there were like when there's,

an outage in the environment right and you had to prioritize what is important at that time there's there's like managing that that.

Perspective with the the leadership like that's there's a technical either side of things and I think we can prioritize the technical tasks and say okay well I'm going to do this thing first because it's

it's more important and I know it's more important but it's not just what we know it's also like okay mr. manager here's what's going on

here's what's more important we're going to knock this out now let me let me have 15 minutes to knock it out I don't know about you but I've had I've had.

Carl Zellers: [56:15] That's oh yeah that's critical man and that goes two ways especially in the MSP world that goes back to the customer to so there's been cases where

now you as a network engineer at MSP and reactive support and every you know even in an aqua your Frontline support you'll get to know customers and you'll get to know networks and you'll know there

let's just call it criticality or severity or you know the squeaky wheel right so,

you know those are things where it takes a little bit you'll know you won't learn it the network engineering class quote-unquote you won't wear the networking class of Linux class a Windows class

so here's something that I came across from a managed a previous manager and it's just it was it was like a lightbulb moment so.

[56:58] When you have those customers when you have those Networks you're correct,

you know I you try to keep your manager your engineering manager your director whatever whoever you're you know one or two steps above you want to keep them informed hey here's our progress right,

also to the customer the customer knows there's an outage and they know you're working on it.

Sometimes that's not saying that that's not good enough isn't really the best way to say it but it's maybe not the best way to handle it so what I've done in the past for those is you know given the situation maybe this is a 15 to 20 minute,

touchpoint kind of scenario right every 20 minutes I got I have this basic you know status.

Update next steps status update next up status of the next every 20 minutes that technical contact at whatever site is down or outage or whatever is happening right that person or persons will get current status.

Update.

Next steps it doesn't have to be verbose it can be very very technical right status no changes in adjacency next steps we've done this we've done that I'm sorry.

[58:10] Update we've done this we've done this we've done this next steps we're going to try these two things we may need your help with Item B but we'll let you know right and you kind of filter through that every 10-15 minutes and that it gives the right amount of transparency.

It keeps them from getting too hot.

But it also kind of sets expectations fairly and it's just one of those it's just a trick I mean I managers we sat down and kind of evaluate in a situation an outage that got out of hand and,

not necessarily you know by me or not because of that that wasn't implemented but that was a very good thing that we learned that I learned.

That you can employ in those kind of situations that helps manage the situation in general.

Zig Zsiga: [58:53] Now let's get it what would you call that like do you want to terminate as that you mention like a 20 minute.

Carl Zellers: [58:59] It's like a see you know it's like a sitrep right like here we go or you know you know we have.

Zig Zsiga: [59:04] It's like a situational report.

Carl Zellers: [59:06] What what you're saying is technical what you're not saying is we still care we're still working on it we still have ideas we still have we ex things off that can't be contributing acting like you're saying a lot of things without saying it when you do that kind of.

Zig Zsiga: [59:20] Well you're also showing the attention right you're showing that this is hey I'm going to keep you informed every 20 minutes you're going to get some message for me it may be the same message it may be similar but you're ready to get something for me or my team and you're going to know where we're at.

Carl Zellers: [59:34] You build here's my MSP soapbox you always build value you don't have to be say like I'm not sales I'm not a salesperson

but you know you're always building value in the portfolio the offering the product the brand the you know the service the technical service The Experience everything so that kind of plays into that a little bit more but but yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [59:55] Nice nice so on the whole I like breaking on the whole like breaking something or something not breaking something that's wrong way.

We're not going to get our way to break something unless we're in our own.

Carl Zellers: [1:00:06] Yes.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:07] So when something breaks what is like the number one thing that you do.

Carl Zellers: [1:00:16] That's question best question didn't know I was going to get this question very happy I got this question.

I want to I want to make a big deal of this because this is my this is my answer this is always been my answer it's from experience it's here here it is okay.

What's the first thing you do what's the first thing you do the first thing you do.

You make sure whatever it is you know basic assessment what can I do.

To not make this worse first thing you do evaluate do a quick evaluation quick scan right what can I do to not make the how can I not make this worse that's priority number one.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:57] Wow that's good.

Carl Zellers: [1:00:59] Quick example right you're in your packet tracer lab or CML lab right.

You porked up an ospf adjacency on a broadcast segment reboot it,

down the interface shut those shut you know all these quick things right you know this might work that might work it might be this it might be that might be a memory leak this that the other.

That stuff is fine in a learning context with or in a lab.

When you know maybe you're competing in someone else to race and you know break fix something with a fellow engineer something in production.

You really really really need to be careful before you even you know you're also evaluating the problem at the same time obviously but the mindset.

Ideally should be okay I see you know this this thing is not broken or this thing is broken this thing is not working this doesn't respond okay.

Point in case look there here's a couple things I could do but let's let's go.

Whatever does not make this worse that's what you do not want to do that's the first thing you don't do is make something worse.

Zig Zsiga: [1:02:08] I like it I like it it's you don't ever want to make it worse right you never really know that's never your goal but it happens so many times.

Carl Zellers: [1:02:14] You could sum it up into three words we all get that tattooed somewhere on us don't make it worse or something I don't know.

Zig Zsiga: [1:02:20] We'll get like our CCNA and ccnp is tattooed on those two at the same time but then we'll get yeah we'll get that dude.

Carl Zellers: [1:02:25] Exactly exactly.

Zig Zsiga: [1:02:27] I like that it doesn't that's a good take on that I think that that's something that we miss we Overlook honestly so.

Carl Zellers: [1:02:35] Pick a lot of people get jacked up and let's get in this thing and let's just start you know what I mean and it's like.

Zig Zsiga: [1:02:39] Me that's me.

Carl Zellers: [1:02:40] Do any yeah and we all have the tendency to do that because we,

we have a lot of experience we've seen similar instances we you know we you know out of the old T shoot book it's like shoot from the hip

divide and conquer bottom-up top-down you know like let's just get rolling on this thing like I can tell you okay ospf adjacency not happening okay well these three switches aren't even involved so don't worry about those this AP you know like,

but again like it's just okay just a quick just a quick Forefront of the Mind how do I not make this worse and then we'll be okay.

Zig Zsiga: [1:03:13] Well so like like you use your lab as an example and I think that's a great example because when you're studying for something in a lab environment you have out-of-band management and mostly situations and some form right if you're doing like VMware or if it

Evie and G or fit CML right

you shut all the interfaces down there is no impact to your in accessing those devices but in a production environment where your SSH into the devices or

or whatever right it's a totally different impact when you go

interface range you know gig 0 0 or 0 0 1 all the way that you know twenty and you shut them all down.

Carl Zellers: [1:03:51] That was my that was my little Easter egg that I hid in there and I'm glad you picked it up.

Quick easy example don't do that in the lab don't do that in production.

Zig Zsiga: [1:04:00] Well so I have a story and I've been saying it lately so.

Carl Zellers: [1:04:03] Figuring out you don't have out-of-band management after the fact is not how you figure out you don't have out anything.

Zig Zsiga: [1:04:08] It's definitely did not.

Um real use case for that actually so I actually taught someone when I was in the Marine Corps how to use the interface range command and I was under the impression that this person understood it,

I was a bad teacher the time.

It happens it's fine well he went ahead and thought he knew what he was doing to and so he went ahead and used it or he didn't use it correctly and then he would have had and shut down all the ports on the switch and this

to be in a deployed environment in a base and I will not name any locations or names but just a quick example and we fixed it

it wasn't a big critical outage or anything it was like a 30-second outage for like the local think of like a local it's just a switch it was,

things are connected to it so those those people that were connected to it we're disconnected that's all but again,

interface range he shut everything down and I thought I taught him a correct way of doing it and I did not obviously and I did not oversee this situation so I did not teach him how to do it in the future,

that's my lesson plan.

Carl Zellers: [1:05:12] But the you know the the the The Shining Light is that every everyone got better and you remember it to this day and the fact that you remember to this day means you learn something a be you became better see.

Zig Zsiga: [1:05:24] It's got to be a see there's gotta be a see well I mean it,

it's interesting because all those little mistakes that you make their impactful for you as a learning experience right they may not be as impactful to other people I've been in some of those situations are alike,

I had someone that was senior than me and said hey shut down this VLAN interface and I'm like are you sure.

In different depending on your situation your scenario like this happen to be I was a Corporal in the Marine Corps and he was a sergeant and him and I were really good friends and he's very smart he's like yeah just gonna shut down below 100 just do it Mike,

okay I'm pretty sure that's the server VLAN.

Or there any was either the server being that or is the routing adjacency plan and I think it was a routing and Jason seal and so we did it it was on the server switch that's what it was was on the server switch and it was these

routing adjacency real and so I'm like okay sir I hit you shut and we lost connectivity to all the servers.

And it was like okay time the council into it you know.

Thankfully it was right there the switch was local we did another good drive anywhere but those things happen all the time right so.

I'm a little little soapbox there for a minute so I got.

Carl Zellers: [1:06:37] Sometimes it's complacency sometimes it's urgency there's never you know that it's usually a place of benevolence that it comes from it's just slow down how do we not make this worse and lets you know.

Zig Zsiga: [1:06:48] So I don't know about you I this is something I've learned to and everyone should think of this too is like I get the hard stuff right

like getting its highly complex and I'm not saying I get it always right but I'm saying more often than not if it's hard and really really complex like bidirectional route

redistribution or you know something crazy service provider technology like in Ras options or whatever care support and carrier

I'm going to get it right it's when I have to do something that's really really simple that I'm going to get wrong right I could be doing a port Channel,

I'm going to get it wrong for some reason right I'm are real and interfaces or spanning tree or you know whatever imma spend port for example I'm going to mess up a span Port right that's just me that's me right there I'm going to.

Badge of pride.

Carl Zellers: [1:07:37] It usually is some of the simplest things sometimes and they said route redistribution you know like a lot of times you I'll end up with this you know quote-unquote Network

hypochondriac type scenario where you know all have been studying some you know let's just say it's route tagging inside or a route map

with route tagging on Route redistribution or something and you know I tinfoil hat my theory and I can't get this thing working and I go back and realize that I used the wrong as number in the redistribute command and or a distribute list or some you know

the simple it's the I'm not saying it's always a simple things but,

you know sometimes sometimes you you hyper focus in on what you've been reading and studying lately and that that's that's always the problem to all my next ten problems that's the problem because it's fresh on my mind and you know sometimes it's the you know just.

Ten ways to Sunday can't feed us out but you have the wrong ass number.

Zig Zsiga: [1:08:30] That's it right it's something simple right.

Carl Zellers: [1:08:33] A muffed up prefix lists you know it's the simplest stupidest things right.

Zig Zsiga: [1:08:37] Yeah I make a lot of simple mistakes and it's like an eye troubleshoot that symbols mistake for like hours and then I'm like after two hours I find out what is wrong and I'm like wow I've been troubleshooting this for two hours and I was troubleshooting the wrong thing you know like that's.

Carl Zellers: [1:08:50] Hundred percent we've all done it will all do it again yep.

Zig Zsiga: [1:08:54] So couple more questions right and

one of them is so how do you go about in your role today in your past roles the merging kind of those different functions like design implementation operations and obviously support in that network engineer role.

Carl Zellers: [1:09:10] So you know on the learning side it's all about you know hopefully you can you can you can be in an environment that's very collaborative and working alongside seniors and some of the Architects and things where you can you know kind of kind of get get your feet wet

get some exposure to it

you know sometimes it's trial by fire you know and that's those are the I wouldn't say those are I wouldn't say you learn necessarily

you know more or less either way but but both are an eventuality a hundred percent,

with network engineering you know you're going to have times where you can sit and you know be coached and ask questions and there's times where they it's on your plate and you know you have the keys in your hand you're driving you know so,

try to make the most of both hopefully you know the other thing you know there's a lot of its.

[1:10:07] Mistaken I don't know if it's mistaken ego or what but you know there's a lot of hesitancy to reach out and ask questions I think you know when things are new and your plates to fold but that you'll be seeing as you know inferior engineer you know things like that but.

It's a good opportunity to learn how to formulate questions it's a good opportunity to learn how to ask intelligent questions right so hey,

you know I got I have this proposal here and I think a couple like,

cite a society well I have this proposal and I you know I'm pretty sure to work but you know we'll see mmm not maybe you didn't make the most of that opportunity opportunity be says hey I've got this proposal here.

You know I think these three things are solid these two things are a maybe and here's three or four reasons why I think these are maintenance right so now I'm thinking on the higher level now I'm you know I'm scrutinizing my own work

for the for the betterment of learning and the project itself but but at the same time you know I'm going to a senior,

for colleague not even if it's a senior just a colleague with a well-formed thought question

details elaboration yok of car why do you think this won't work why do you supplied like you you thought that's a good design but why do you think it may not buy you think we suboptimal why do you think it may not work what do you think it may not be resilient

to you know you know let's just say bam saturation or something like that right like you obviously have these thoughts.

[1:11:33] Just go well it should be good enough right I've got these I want to be cautious about this let's talk this through with you know some some other mines and but it's fully thought through its fully formed its and you may be wrong and you may be right

maybe half roll you maybe half right you know the point is that you've taken that extra step of critical thinking.

Applied it to that scenario and made the most of an opportunity versus just saying well you know best practices.

Says in the documentation says this should work so it should work and that's that's the end of it right go that next level go that next level.

Zig Zsiga: [1:12:12] That's awesome.

Carl Zellers: [1:12:13] Scrutinize Your Design scrutinize your implementation you know what I mean lean on it theoretically.

And practically if you can you know it deployment make sure you think you know what you said is right is right.

Zig Zsiga: [1:12:25] You go out there is a lien on it yeah

and make sure you know is what you got there is right is right I mean that's what you just said right I don't that's great great great information to give back to everyone so what about certifications right what about certifications what would you recommend that a network engineer that's maybe starting out should go after.

Carl Zellers: [1:12:45] Starting out so so here's kind of like I've talked to people in the communities and stuff and just kind of bouncing ideas around and and I've taken a few things that were outside my,

Focus or wheelhouse and just to kind of see so I kind of have this you know.

I want to go into network engineering but I'm like day zero right CompTIA ITF which is like the It fundamentals +.

Do that right if you still want to do network engineering with an it kind of excuse me it with a network engineering Focus honestly and this is like green green right like day for,

ITF good place to start go do the CCT routes which

The Cisco Certified Technician it's still that lowest level entry level certification kind of aimed at field engineers,

on your way to network engineer he might end up as smart hands as a field engineer as an on-site hands and eyes for that are reliable right the data center where you know,

every port is a on Roi port and you can't afford to well I thought that was gig 0-3 right so you're now you're now you're working up to this.

Entry-level kind of Hardware software getting familiar with things with the CCT route switch.

[1:14:12] I love it I still love this stuff I want to keep going Network Engineers the goal perfect,

probably Network plus is a good precursor straight into the CCNA

you know it's just called the CCNA now so you know I might go CCT routes which straight into Network+ then jump over to CCNA

and at that point honestly you know I think a lot of people want to jump straight to Encore if it were me,

now we're starting over today and I you know just I'm a newly minted CCNA honestly I'd probably do the the design specialization first.

And then I might work towards an RC with an eye towards you know going encore.

Third that's that's kind of how I see that train you know motioning with my hand this bumpy kind of Rocky path.

[1:15:08] But,

that's just kind of in my recent experience in kind of talking to people and taking some of these exams although I didn't you know didn't need to take the CCT routes which I didn't need to take the ITF plus from compte I didn't need to take the network Plus

but those are kind of things that I wanted on my own kind of wanted to explore and you know so that if someone like you

you gave me the opportunity to ask that question and provide you know some insightful feedback that,

you know I'd have a good answer versus the canned you know do well you can't do the ccent anymore so just do CCNA and then ccnp you know so.

Zig Zsiga: [1:15:45] Well.

Carl Zellers: [1:15:46] It's kind of lets them right that's my thoughtful answer.

Zig Zsiga: [1:15:49] Well I definitely think and I've gotten it for few people now that the end salad exam right and so.

Design exam right we called the n salad exam knocks I had knocks on the show a couple weeks ago maybe a month ago now I don't know.

And he said the same thing he did the alien core then core Encore one first and mine won't meet keep in mind I have not done these exams right so I don't know anything about.

Carl Zellers: [1:16:14] I haven't either I haven't either too well just just the in salad and the VPN the new VPN exam that's only two new ones I've taken I know course.

Zig Zsiga: [1:16:21] No course all right well I mean in he was heated the yank or first and then he did the and salad one and he's like yeah I did it backwards.

Like the design one that design one should be first I was like okay well that makes some sense to me I mean design should be first.

Carl Zellers: [1:16:36] I knew knox's smart guy I knew I knew you'd see it my way.

Zig Zsiga: [1:16:39] Barry right we just that's you know so that's some validation there for everyone that's listening that like this is you know maybe maybe design is important.

Carl Zellers: [1:16:51] Yeah yeah for sure.

Zig Zsiga: [1:16:52] All right so I like the question I like the answer not the question I asked the question so hey I'll make fun of myself every day you know.

Carl Zellers: [1:17:00] Definitely.

Zig Zsiga: [1:17:01] And so okay so my last question to you is really more about like you know,

what's what would words of wisdom would you give someone that starting out or are already in the network engineering field altogether you know last words of wisdom tips tricks know what does Carl say.

Carl Zellers: [1:17:21] Hmm I would say.

Keep good notes like you know going back to the notepad thing when you when you see something I mean trust me you'll find a dock somewhere and I promise you a week later you'll never be able to find it

you know build your build your database of links and build your notepads full of your you know experience with like the notes like you said with the The Catered sort of curated

verbage around around those for context I you know I'm not one to suggest job hopping the wrong word.

[1:17:56] Look for opportunities that afford you the ability to have a lot of exposure to either,

um levels of engineering and hopefully at the same time maybe you can touch Wireless and around switch

insecurity and some of the software stuff in some of the operating system stop and some VPN like those roles you know they come with big companies they come with small companies but if you know you feel pigeon-holed you feel like you do the same thing every day I mean.

The reality is that there's jobs out there that afford you a lot of access and a lot of you know lateral movement through Technologies and platforms that.

I mean man you like you'll just you'll grow faster than you can you can even imagine you know that's been the.

V number one contributing factor to,

the trajectory of you know my learning in my career is that I've been afforded these opportunities to be in an environment with collaborative people but also very wide portfolios as it pertains to technology so don't shy away,

you can't you know just dig in embrace it,

learn it you know it's not always easy but but if you know if you can find one of those opportunities and get in there and make the most of it and you'll learn,

music it's you won't even turn off you'll just keep learning and absorbing and you know so.

Zig Zsiga: [1:19:23] Well that is outstanding I love that and I think everyone else will too we're can everyone find you on the interwebs.

Carl Zellers: [1:19:29] So I am I'm relatively I don't know quieter or whatever but I guess that also at TWiT on Twitter I'm at

CF Zellers for Charlie Fox Ze L lers give you the whole thing for that actually if you want but,

number four and then you know I'm on LinkedIn LinkedIn I like to I like to promote

you know visibility for people you know looking for opportunities and whether it's you know I'm looking for advice or you know trying to point people in other people's direction for advice like,

you know and and chatting sometimes with people looking to come up hey how did you get there hey how'd you do this like some stuff so

not huge on the content creation stuff but I'm a big consumer big fan of all my all my colleagues friends and peers so yeah that's I'm out there on Twitter and Linkedin for the most part.

Zig Zsiga: [1:20:25] All right cool cool hey Carl man I appreciate you joining me today it's been a pleasure thank you so much and I'm going to wrap up the show buddy.

Carl Zellers: [1:20:35] Yeah man it's been great it's been great can't wait for the next time.

Zig Zsiga: [1:20:39] Yeah yeah yeah I will take you up on that don't know if you offer you'll be back really soon I promise you.

Carl Zellers: [1:20:45] Yeah man but yeah we'll catch you in the Discord and out there in the real world man.

Zig Zsiga: [1:20:49] Yeah for sure for sure hey friends that's going to close out this episode of the zigbits network design podcast thank you all for listening

I really do appreciate it if you want to check out the show notes for this episode it will be zigbits dot Tech / 77 that's 77 yeah we're at episode 77 today that's crazy

if you want to keep the conversation going with Carl all of his contact information will be on the show notes page including the link to the A1 Discord Channel where you can talk to him whenever you want pretty much

because that's what I do other than that

I appreciate you one last thing I did forget I'm starting to start and do this so I am still creating that Network design course I talked about I don't know three months ago now,

if you want to get weekly updates on where I am with that Network design course you can go ahead and join the email list it's zigbits dot Text slash network design

all one word no spaces no hyphens and you'll get audibly added to the email list and I send out weekly updates on where I'm at what's going on with the course

but again the plan is to have the course fully done by February so February 20 21 so if you want to get information on that,

go and hit that link and you'll be right into that email list and I'll let you know what's going on and that's everything so have a great night have a great day thank you all and

until next time bye for now.

Carl Zellers: [1:22:14] Thanks man.

Zig Zsiga: [1:22:15] Thanks buddy.