Demystifying The Role of the Network Engineer with Tim McConnaughy – ZNDP 071

ZNDP 071: Demystifying The Role of The Network Engineer with Tim McConnaughy

Zig Zsiga: Demystifying the role of the Network Engineer with Tim McConnaughy Episode 71. Welcome back my Friends, Nerds, Geeks and Ziglets out there we have another episode of the Zigbits Network Design Podcast where Zigabytes are faster than gigabytes. As always, we strive to provide real-world context around technology.

Zig: I'm Zig I'm always your host here today I have a guest expert he's been on the show before and I will make sure the show notes we linked to that pass show but today I have my friend Tim McConnaughy joining me and we're going to talk about what is network engineer the role. What do you have to do in that role when we talk about certifications and just things going on as a network engineer and again I don't like doing these intros too long so enough of me just talking Tim welcome to the show welcome back to the show how are you doing today buddy?

Tim McConnaughy: Thanks it's good to be here I'm doing well man as well as any of us can be doing. We're closing in on the end of 2020 and I think we're all, hoping that the next year brings better things on January first. We'll see that we can't end soon enough right that's the whole point I can't answer enough.

Zig:
Yeah I know that's good to hear hey I'll totally off topic right in it

and as everyone knows we don't script these things right. I'm a very we like to make it real and raw you know I think I noticed you were playing a video game the other day what game were you playing,

Tim: Was this on the Discord or whatever?

Zig: Yeah I think I saw you were playing some sort of game and I figured hey what's the game of the choice for you today you know.

Tim: So I'm a big fan of persona which is Series has been out in Japan for a long time and has several iterations have made it over here I played Persona 3 on the PlayStation 2 and then.

Tim: Within the last year I played Persona 5 which actually I've got a display behind me with Persona 5 is probably my favorite one but I never had a PS Vita which is the little hand held that PlayStation had your only had so I missed out on Persona 4, and recently with the last I guess six months or so,

they released on Steam so I've never been a console PC Gamer but I decided I went and bought a an Xbox controller that would work on my computer and I've just been playing the hell out of Persona 4 and kind of fill it in the air it has been it's been great I'm on I'm almost done with it it's excellent,

Zig: Yeah I have to get some time back into playing games it's been way too long I do love a good video game I see you in a no one can see the video right but I see that you have a final fantasy is that what I see behind you is that a Final Fantasy poster

Tim: so I have dis I don't know and I'm afraid to like I don't want to like plug that's like a way that's good for whatever right,

but I when I was decorating my office after I got it all finished I realize I'm turning away from the mic now still gonna sound weird.

[2:48] That I didn't make decorations right was to Bare walls so I decide I went online and started looking for like posters and stuff and then I found these things called display its with your Steel,

like brushed steel versions of posters so way more durable and you just more or less stick magnets to your wall where you want to hang them.

And then you can switch them move them however you want and so I bought some for Final Fantasy III Persona 5 Royal one,

some of these are the shot and again I realized we don't have video right but I would just ask him

yeah anyway I'll go off on a tangent if you left me but yeah yeah dude that's exactly right hey one last gertner D video game question what's your favorite Final Fantasy

man how much time do we have yeah I'm a big fan of Final Fantasy 7 like 10 seconds just pick one if you if it was life or death right now which one would you say is your favorite.

[3:39] I you know what I really liked.

[3:43] Well seven like everybody but I think Final Fantasy 4 which was to in the US was still my favorite one the old Super Nintendo and that was still probably my favorite one this many years later,

certainly not the best but probably still my favorite see there you go and we're done with the show that's it we're done yeah all right back to our our topic no I had to ask that question you know because

I think it's a big debate on Final Fantasy XIV which one's better than the other and I'm a big fan of

just role playing games and so just to talk to another gamer and talk about games for a little bit it's just gets that that mental.

[4:18] Urge for me to play video games kind of subsides it a little bit right so I don't waste time playing video games and I build more of this content you know so,

so you know let's jump into some stuff right so Tim let's talk a little bit about you so where are you today in the industry what's your role what's your focus all those kind of things.

Yeah sure so I am a high official Title Nine Days

I'm an Enterprise networking Technical Solutions architect which is a full right we love our titles with Cisco I work in the see POC which are is our customer proof-of-concept labs.

[5:01] And I also work as a DI Cloud developer so anybody's familiar with our demo Cloud offerings.

Customers are can see those more often probably than see pox but I did that as well so my focus is usually sd-wan but it's really Iain so SDA sd-wan routes which some Wireless that's hypothetical.

And yeah it's a really fun way to say that I'm a lab rat ostensibly for first of go right when you spend time in the lab right that's pretty much Where You Are.

[5:30] That's where that's where I live breathe and work absolutely it's fun stuff do you know racking equipment up testing it out doing it for customer's specific requirements,

yep that's exactly right the so the process as it were with the with the c pox is that we have account teams that have worked with customers to provide.

Or to come up with other with some kind of.

[5:53] Design or maybe not a full design maybe it maybe it's just a usually more like a concept like a specific.

Thing I use case if you will that the customer wants to see an action they want to see some Cisco solution.

I work in a lab before they are committing to buy the product obviously that's.

Makes perfect sense so it's our job to work with those account teams and try to and try to build that Wonderland if you will.

The customer wants to see in action and show them hey you know this solution.

[6:25] Can meet your requirements can meet your needs and it doesn't always I won't lie and say it always works out right sometimes we get bugs sometimes there's Hardware problems.

But we work it out and we deliver something that the customer will hopefully like.

Yeah my experience with CPAC was when I first started at Cisco so you know if anyone doesn't know if you do I mean I would think that everyone would know that's listening but my day job I work at Cisco as well but I work on ncx I'm one of the Architects on the

public sector team and I had see POC where my customers looking to run a very very large dmvpn Enterprise kind of connectivity model

and so we went to this Epoch for that and we literally had all the requirements and all the

compliance standards and regulations there and this Epoch team just helped us out and set it all up and we did real live or use cases brought the customers into the place it was really a lot of fun so.

Sometimes customers let's be real right not all customers run full Cisco networks yep and they have good reasons not to you know for whatever reason that is,

so you know sometimes we'll get you know Juniper gear into whatever the customer needs to see like that's kind of emulate at work you know that's part of the that's part of it as well.

[7:42] We have we have a different vendor Hardware in our Labs as well too because our customer uses all different vendors Solutions right so we can actually art and this is totally off topic but our customer has

I say our customer my customer

as requirements where they can't have one vendor solutions for everything so they had to have multiple vendors in play and so it's a multi vendor,

environment if you talk about a specific area of the network like a data center it's a multi-vendor data center architecture it's not a single vendor solution so.

[8:11] But no that's good see POC I think it's great you know Andy Cloud on top of that and I know obviously you and I know because each other pretty well Cisco live speaker right you did the multicast session in Barcelona.

That's probably the last time or close to last time I traveled anywhere for works so.

What Young impressionable people who were back then I know it was so long ago man I miss it.

[8:39] Oh yeah that would be good yeah so right so I took over from volumes and last I say last year like it hasn't been like a full year that we've been sitting here in our offices right at home office.

I guess almost two years ago now I took over the introduction of multicast from Bo.

[8:57] Who you know who was not at the well at the time doing well so I was happy.

To be asked I spent way too much time researching and reacquainting myself with multicast so I could be good with it and yeah.

Exactly right so yeah kind of Barcelona we did the digital to did we did the Subscribe digital to they usually did you do the break out the.

God I just completely brain fart it was the mpls

yeah no let me GP multi-home Internet architecture that's my session right so I know the day right that's funny no I did I did mine digital as well

um but I was really heavy into the Cisco Lobby West digital event.

I just last time you and I really saw each other was in Barcelona hit always has been I mean I was helping you with your session you help me with my session,

and it was Barcelona like mine was Barcelona this it was great you know I was looking forward to Amsterdam it's a little add a little sad about that one but.

Did it is what it is right I hope it's out of my control me you know like it is what it is.

Let's just ask some of the actual network engineering questions then at this point so just kind of stir it around it right I'm screwing around the main topic and I'm on this was just get right in so you know.

What is the role the network engineer to you what is it okay.

[10:22] So to me and I hear engine so so what I've heard and I don't know if I remember subscribe to the idea but you know we got to start somewhere,

is that the difference between someone who is a network engineer and someone who is a network administrator.

An end and you know I need to preface this by saying I again I'm not understand sure I agree with this but.

The idea let's go with that like let's go with the Plato's theory of forms of what is a network engineer and what is it recommended very right is that the a network administrator would be someone who takes.

[11:00] A set of requirements or something and just kind of rolls if you will like they're not this is really having the input into the design.

And the creation of that architecture or whatever whereas you know kind of by its by its terminology engineer implies that we are creating some kind of a solution.

An engineer now again I'm not I'm not saying this to piss off all of the network get people out there with the title of network administrator right the problem is that I feel.

[11:33] I can sell I can talk about Plato's theory of forms all day but then when the rubber meets the road we hit the real world right there's a thousand and Enterprises out there that have different titles,

before you know architect engineer administrator God knows what else right so so please do not be offended if you're listening to this and you're like hey,

yeah I mean you have to take it with a grain of salt right so each each vertical each company is going to have a different perspective so but I think as a generalized terminology right I think a lot of people,

well reference themselves as Network engineers and a lot of those cases sometimes your everything right sometimes you're doing it all.

And in some cases it's more siloed where you have a network admin and I think the progression would be Network admin network engineer.

Maybe Network designer and then eventually Network architect if their workers was a progression but in sometimes all of those roles are merged into one rule.

Yeah absolutely not only merged into one role but like there's no there's not really any difference between.

[12:35] Them from from and this down speaking more of the I'm thinking of like the the upper level management or mid-level management looking down at the at the Operation Center versus,

you know the the network administrator engineer designer architect whatever summon some Enterprises are huge and have a mature level of Separation there right and some.

Are very small and of course like you said one person pretty much does it all I worked for a global Enterprise.

Where we had three Engineers plus a manager and the manager was had come from.

Have been an engine engineer and was promoted to network manager right and.

[13:17] I don't even remember what the titles were it was something really really generic that their claim to fame for me it was always that they were they made their whole it Department was incredibly generic so like all the titles are extremely generic like.

[13:29] And you'd like operations engineer covered you could be a DBA a web developer network engineer right let you know I mean like so again when I talk about titles you know very tongue-in-cheek there.

But yeah so it absolutely the stratification I think you only really can truly see.

Within an Enterprise that buys into that that there needs to be a stratification there should be stratification.

[13:55] So the way I've been trying my best because I've done a number of these shows right where we're trying to demystify the network engineer and really understand the role but I'm also doing shows that are

demystifying the network designer and the network architect right because I think that these are different roles and saying that was network network admin and then also the devops side of things so if anyone's listening there's a whole bunch of shows out there on these topics already and there's going to be more so if you have questions and you want to learn what these rules are and see what role

resonates for you I'm a big fan of.

[14:26] Identifying what you love to do and then seeking roles that fit what you love to do right because I don't think what

especially in it you have to love what you do you have to like this stuff because you're going to be learning every day I mean this isn't something that you're going to walk away every night not having to learn anymore I mean I don't know about I think,

you can ask that you can answer that question to Tim right like I think we learned every day.

[14:49] That's absolutely true and and I was thinking about this specific thing actually,

for for a different reason not for this but I but I it all Blends together dude this is all it's all integral and needed I was thinking about the fact that you know.

We do learn everyday and honestly in this industry we have to write it's almost like a race that you just got to keep running.

[15:14] And you know like it or not you're going to have to keep up or.

Find yourself obsolete I've been actually I've been listening to the other demystifying stuff it's great right it's good to have so many different.

[15:28] Viewpoints not only you know on the same some of the same stuff but also on the different roles like you know what's going to do with Stuart devops as you know excellent like they've been good and I think it's important to get that that.

[15:42] Healthy rounded.

View from multiple viewpoints to kind of try to find the golden mean if you will to invoke Plato again it was our special guest by the way a special guest.

[15:55] I don't know so I think first off thank you for listening to the content that I'm producing and creating or whatever producing grading just making content right I you know you're a subscriber then and I'm going to bow down to you thank you,

thank you I really do appreciate it though and you know not to be funny I really do,

yeah so my thought process behind the demystifying the you know whatever role,

was really to get a subset within different aspects of our career and different verticals and different levels all that,

and then be able to articulate the hey here's what this role is and then if you and hear how what it what it looks like in these different verticals right so you know a network engineer role might look very different in a you know

a financial institution compared to a SAS software as a service company it might be very different in a school district like a k through 12 or higher ed or or whatever right it also might look very different,

depending on the location like where you and I live in the u.s. United States you know the role network engineering can mean something very different in Germany and Australia so I figured

let's get all this information let's pull it all together and that way we can tell people hey if you're looking to start in this career field

look at this stuff right look at all this content and figure out what the role you want to be right that you think that you will love or you like the idea of and then start figuring out what vertical fits for you.

[17:23] Yeah no I agree with that completely and the roles are definitely different the world over there's there's definitely a culture.

Obviously right so culture and all things.

When I worked for the global Enterprise I would have to travel to different countries and do installs and stuff and just to see even,

something as basic as how different office culture in total was and then to even drill it down to the it.

[17:53] Level of how that specific countries it team took care of their office was there was a lot of culture that was different there as well.

So I couldn't agree more are they and the rolls thing yeah just having this available to people who are starting out and kind of exploring that I think is.

Is going to be a useful thing to have yeah so I don't know if we got around to you answering what is the role of the network engineer so I'm going to put you on the spot again.

[18:20] What digressed a little,

old man Simpson here I'm going to tell you how many bees for a quarter so the role of a network engineer right I feel like the role of a network engineer.

Is to be an engine be an engineer right to be able to take some requirement of the business or,

just whatever you're trying to accomplish really and be able to translate that and come up with a solution that meets the need.

[18:55] That's there I mean there's Engineering in general we don't want the Army Corps of Engineers what are they doing right there building levees dams.

You know whatever to meet the need that hey we don't want our town to flood you know it's the same kind of stuff I think Engineering in general is that and then network engineering is,

doing it for the network that's great I like that I like that a lot I liked it a lot

all right so next question right as we go through this we're going to Hammer Hammer a little bit here you know some of this is going to make sense for you to I think it's going to fit right in and we got a People couple POC questions coming up and I think those questions are like right in your wheelhouse always the same Grill,

not wheel

and I know that that's my new that's I like that the real house that's right I'm keeping that one if you're keeping that one it's because I can't pronounce things correctly

and I'm too lazy and I'm not lazy I'm not going to spend the time to go back and edit it so I'll just laugh about it,

this is how my mouth work sometimes so yeah so what do you think Network Engineers generally do when they have a project.

[20:01] Okay now this is where it gets into what our projects are going to be right and we were just talking about how an Enterprise engineer has a different.

[20:10] Job if you will then say one that works for an MSP,

you know where they've got customers right versus one military network is run extremely differently and the customers treated very differently so so I'm not sure I could be that high level I'll try.

Well let's just use an example from your own experience can you let's let's highlight a project you've done recently.

Okay that's fair just generically how does the project right so actually I can use this Epoch pretty pretty easily for that.

[20:42] We didn't plan that by the way we did not plant.

No just because that's what I can easily refer to so a project in my case in my job is a cboc is That's So we have a call or some kind of initial contact with.

An account team in this Epoch that is like hey our customer really wants to see the solution and action.

And so we'll have a call with the with the account team there and try to understand you know what are the business what are the requirements what does the customer absolutely need to see,

what is the design look like we need a diagram we need a bomb if you will we need a list of equipment basically we need to get the details of what are the project so so so obviously number one is.

What are the details right we like scoping it out kind of your like the understanding what they're looking to achieve and what they had today.

Exactly that's a scope so the very first thing you have to do is scope the project obviously and then from there you know your second.

[21:44] Round is once you've got a scope because I I liken it to.

Like building building building sorry like drawing a picture right somebody hands you a blank piece of paper.

[21:56] And you can just imagine that the paper goes in all directions forever like at some point you're gonna have to draw a box and say here this inside this box is my picture in a box yourself in into a corner where the rail where's the outside of this picture.

And from there you can be like all right now that I know where my limitations are now I can build within the picture.

So that's what I consider scoping right scoping is where my rails where there's the box that goes on the outside of this thing.

[22:23] And once you have that you know then you start to figure out okay so here's my requirements.

You know and then you what are my limitations limitations are like the lines of the stuff of the thing you're going to draw or the thing that's been drawn let's actually you know what let's use coloring books right so now we got to call it color within the line right.

[22:41] I'm better off the cuff if I tried to if I tried to like read this all and prepare a speech at a time this be extremely boring

this is good though because it's we just made it all the way down to like third grade level there with coloring books get us I'll get us some more crackers before this is done it's like Barney style you know.

So right so our limitations right that's our that's our lines if you do that within which we got a color.

[23:07] And that informs the project as well right and so as you get boxed in if you will,

the your option it's just like design right you're going to you're going to look at your options you get by the more you get boxed into certain requirements the more it becomes clear what you have to do.

[23:23] Now on see POC this is different because we expect that by the time it's coming to us there's a nice we have a picture right like that you're you know we're not the.

Purveyors of creating pictures we're expecting to lab up something for for you.

So a lot of times when it comes in that does still require that we ask some questions that you know establish him some guidelines and then.

You know okay great we can build this for you so from a project perspective these that's why I said you start with the scoping you figure out what your lines are.

[23:55] And can I just go from there I guess

yeah and so I'm assuming I'm going to assume a couple things I'm going to put words out there and you just tell me if they're right or wrong right because I'm not trying to talk for you but you had the scoping phase my thought then is you probably have like a staging phase of some sort getting equipment getting it set up

doing the pre configurations of that equipment may be upgrading It Whatever doing a fault test all those things.

Yeah so so the so the process is like this we have our scoping call we agree basically the counting and RNC POC agrees on what the.

What the tests are what's going to make the customer happy we get feedback from the customer hey is this what you want to see.

And then yes we have a built phase where we've got our bomb in we've got the diagram and we build to the diagram.

We've got a setup phase where we configure in partnership with other TSA s or whoever it is right well will configure,

the solution as needed and then we have a testing phase where we go through it with a customer we test with them and we show them hey the solution

either does or does not you know depending on what you know how lucky I guess the we are that day or,

how it works out right and they and then check all the boxes hopefully and then the customer is satisfied with the solution that's always where we want to get to

yes you're going to drive those use cases whatever those Kate that is really testing criteria or something like that.

[25:22] And then once it's successful that customers usually pretty happy and they purchase right that's the outcome as you're looking for them to purchase whatever it is that they're testing yeah

that's exactly right and it's a test plan so there is a test plan like a straight up like a test plan procedures and all of this right it's something full framework of testing,

between us and the customer that yeah we tried to meet all of those check boxes,

so let's here's a question right and again this was not not.

[25:51] Scripted so so you know you're in this Epoch and you're setting things up and again this is a specific you know Cisco,

POC lab environment and you in this this here's the easy question first the customers Network Engineers they're there right I'm assuming that they'd be there.

Yeah I mean pretty 2020 right yeah well yeah yeah it normally normally we're going to exclude the year 2020 here in this PSA that's right

all right cool so I guess my question then would be what would you recommend like if you were going to give them a tip on how they should,

kind of structure there

this whole process right from their perspective like I'm thinking like if you have someone right now that's listening to this that is like hey I need to do a see POC for sd-wan I need to get on the phone with Tim in my account heymann we got to set this up you know what should you tell them,

that they should either do or look forward to or make sure they do I said that twice though I see her saying no no I get it that's a good question.

So technically the process is that the account team is actually who brings this epochs to us because.

[27:02] The customer has a lot of input in the whole process right but customers can't like called me up on the phone and say hey we need to do CPR crazy like that's a dial that number of hurdles all right

you're not that a customer can't say hey we would love to see a park of this just that the whole process is internal But to answer your question because I think it's a good question.

What makes a POC a POC is understanding.

[27:27] What is that thing what does that fear uncertainty doubt what are we what are we what are the questions we have that we need answered what do we need to see.

What are we you still concerned about right like we presumably before we're building a giant lab to show this.

[27:44] Our account team has been showing the customer here's how it's going to work in your network here's you know here's a d Cloud demo like just to have some some education about how the process works other,

product works.

So what is it that we need to see what's that check box that needs to be checked before will have confidence that's that's what see baggage generally trying to answer so it's time to create a seat Bach what we're looking for is.

Is the answer that question right what what is the customer need to see in a real environment what is the real thing that they want to see actually working.

[28:17] That will make them feel good about the product you know we're not back we're not in the back like Wizard of Oz you know.

Well and levers and make him lighting flash right like I mean it's a real web and there's real gear do but it's so.

And believe me there's been times when something has it worked or as work that surprised me is but just it's because that was gonna be my next question like what happens when something breaks or doesn't work in this Epoch right.

Right but I mean it's real it's real good bad and ugly right it's really weird it's real that's good that's good that's a good experience right.

[28:53] I'd like to hope so.

[28:56] Do you in any situations do you see a lot of customers come in with like a lot of strict budgetary numbers or do you not get into the conversation with budgetary numbers yeah so I mean clearly both.

Clearly our money is always a factor right for that with every every person every plus person that's going to buy gear as a number that but that's not up to me to consider that's obviously between them and they count team and the.

Pricing and all of that it's by the time it gets to me I'm not that's another reason why I always tell customers that sometimes customers are a little bit.

[29:33] And rightfully so but potentially are a little bit suspicious even though I'm like look this good I can take you back there and we actually do tours here's your rack this is your gear right here you know sometimes you still have suspicions,

and so I can just tell it like up front like dude I don't get any money

if you buy if you buy every box that's a back there I don't get it Petty and and I don't even know how much your deal

you know like how much money is on the table I don't have anything to do with it right I'm here to show you the solution working so and that usually.

[30:06] Makes them feel a little bit better and it's absolutely true by the way so yeah yeah I mean that's just how it is right that's how you are you're becoming that

almost like a trusted adviser that that that terminology is used it's overused nowadays but really that's what you are you're not compensated based on their success and you're not compensated based on the sales success so you're literally there to facilitate the

the point the proof-of-concept right and then guarantee not guarantee anything but like show them.

That it works or that it doesn't work for what they're looking to achieve now obviously you're going to show them what how it works and you're going to tie all those specific success criteria to what they're looking to see.

And I think that's valuable I really do I think that's valuable I had a question and then I lost it so it was like a kind of was in my head and then it kind of jumped away,

come back five minutes later after a long off that topic exactly and that's usually what happens and it's like 30 minutes later I'm like okay you know how we were just talking about that back like you know at the beginning and 10 minutes ago and yep that's me.

So I have a question here so you're really fun to focus on St when you said Enterprise but really it's most of these days you're doing sd-wan work maybe I think it be valuable,

and I have these questions and I think that other people would have these questions too so let's just say.

[31:23] I am looking at getting St wing and I want to see what sd-wan can do.

What are you what are you going to how are you going to set that up as a POC how are you going to show me what sd-wan can do and how I can kind of be successful from a business perspective

and and you know network engineer perspective right with sd-wan with my customer okay I'm putting you on the spot I didn't put you on the spot yeah.

No no no I'm just thinking like I don't want this to sound like I'm freaking cell and not an obstacle either agnostic and so I can already hear,

certain parties out there certain curmudgeons out there all this is prefer

this is just a one-hour this go film so let me pre

face that preface I think that's the word I'm thinking preface or whatever let's try to that vendor agnostically not calling out specific proprietary Cisco.

[32:24] Functions are capabilities let's just say that more like an sdn generalization across and that term being all Estevan Solutions right that's kind of where I would pitch it as.

[32:35] If I just wanted to show a customer had no idea what sd-wan was yes like how this started with are feeling okay that's her.

I think the very first thing you have to start with and I'll say this about any solution I'll say this about sd-wan honesty a routing switching I would have said it about Iowa and especially about Iowa and because that was a.

That's where that was when we really mattered is to start with what is the benefit to the business of adopting the solution.

Like like that's a that's a no-brainer to be just any solution that is has any complexity at all.

We have to answer the question like what is this what is the complexity by me what is what am I getting out of it right.

And so if I if you specifically put me on the spot and say sd-wan like obviously the and by this point everybody's heard it got us here and it's been like the.

The gold-plated word of the the last year to write yes I would say that for us to you and of course it has to do a lot of it has to do with stability and cost reduction,

right so you need to be if you're going to demonstrate sd-wan to anyone and tell them why is this is important to your business.

Whatever vendor you are and I you know I say that throwing that out there and hoping the other sdn vendors would agree with me is that you have to be able to show.

Your customer like hey what is the what is the value of the complexity because that's the UN can be.

[33:57] Complex I mean yeah there's TurnKey you know even the tell Frankie solution technically you just set up until I'd walk away you don't need any policies at all you just get a full mission tunnels and now you got an sd-wan right.

You know anyway the point is what is the complexity of varying levels get my business what do I get out of it.

[34:19] That's the case you got to make for any solution to the business.

[34:23] Now so I have this question right and again these are these are not softball questions mind you so feel free to punt it or whatever right might be a little hard you know so.

[34:35] If I'm a customer and I'm looking at sd-wan is there any value in me getting an sd-wan solution that when I only have like one kind of Link

one like you know we traditionally have these multiple links and you're going to have multiple paths right my intent here is that what if I have I don't have multiple paths maybe I only have one mpls link or maybe I only have internet is there value.

[34:57] For me to get an sd-wan solution and that that model so,

I don't know the well I know but I know my answer and I guess I'll just saying it because I'm pretty sure I need to get some angry messages people say that I think that the,

most value that an sdn can bring you is with things like application where routing and and other avoidance.

You know crap avoidance technology type Solutions right that's that's 90% of the value of 90 of an SD when is I don't have to,

keep my eyes glued to a screen I can trust that the network is going to preserve.

[35:45] My applications to the best of its ability right that's that's that's the that's the pie in the sky so do I think there's value.

Yes do I think there's that do I think that generally the complexity of it out of an entire sto and solution lends itself to a single transport,

type of deployment don't see Ali you in the complexity of a deploying any vendors sto and I'll just say anything or I won't even won't you know,

I don't poke myself in the eye as a Cisco employee if you will of the say any better I don't know which is not to say there's no value right there's there's definitely value in sd-wan of any kind.

I'm saying.

Versus the lift if you will right I'm only running internet and it's not even different internet providers at every Branch like I honestly would struggle.

To argue for an sdn type solution for the complexity so that's good that's a good that I think that's a good answer right and.

[36:46] So and just so everyone's listening right we're not trying to bash any specific vendor solution specific we're not trying to bash anyone solution right we're trying to just be at a higher level and talk about

you know why would you want to go with sd-wan and why you wouldn't and the reason why I'm asking some of these questions is because this is what Tim does for a living right like this see,

he works in a steel and solutions and he has these example capabilities,

capability I don't know how I said that wrong you know it's so so so I'm going to tie a couple things together here so sty in itself right if we bring it up to that vendor agnostic terminology there are inherent

what I've been calling capabilities that all sd-wan is provide all sd-wan solutions provide and those capabilities are really critical now the big one

that is there is the ability to have that application-aware routing and then have that.

[37:37] Health of the circuits that you're running on top of like a good realistic view of the circuits and what their health is if it's a brownout or a blackout or whatever and being able to adapt on the fly to that

now there are some additional capabilities to,

that you can get with this deal and that's kind of why I was asking that question like if you are talking with your company or your customers or whatever role you feel as a network engineer.

And you're discussing should I get sd-wan - I'm not gay St win you know I think that's what you have to do is for you,

is way the capabilities first don't look at the specific vendor Solutions determine how yes this is these I do need it because I need these capabilities,

and maybe that is application away arousing maybe that is at hand security maybe that is and I'm just going off the top of my head right so,

as we as I've mentioned before and pointed out I think we have to at some point I answer the question what do I what am I getting for the complexity I'm introduced yeah right so that's that's the question the answer as a network engineer is fat.

In any of these Solutions when we start talking about software to find whatever.

They're going to have complexity they're going to bring inherent complexity to the to the situation now they might then my office get that complexity right they might hide it.

[38:45] There are solutions out there where everything's like a check box,

you know you hit the check box and the things applied and you don't have to actually go and do it anymore but you're still have a complex solution under the hood and the last thing I'll say about sd-wan and then we'll move on to some other topic because I think we're going down the rabbit hole that we don't need to be going down right

um yeah so I actually did a guide write up a short like a couple page guide on what are the benefits of sd-wan and a vendor agnostic form

so it's not Cisco specific it's not Juniper specific or whatever sd-wan and you know vendor you want to name specific but it does call out the benefits the capabilities I think benefits and capabilities are the same

they have the same meeting it does call out those capabilities all sdn solutions should have and that's that's really the decision makers that you should have like that's

not to decision makers those are the items that should be making your decisions for you like if you need to escape observers drivers yeah there you go see Tim's to use he's a designer that's he is he's a designer so but that if you do want that guide it's free it's a zigbits DOT text / sd-wan,

no spaces on sd-wan no - has nothing like that all right,

so a couple more questions for you right and I'll try really hard not to throw those hard ones at you again investigators really I think what's that I think what people find entertaining about this and I'll speak for myself here,

when what I find entertaining about listening to podcasts is the people like I can go read a book if I win about freaking man right.

[40:13] That's I can read a book I read I can do it a lot faster than listening to two guys just you know going back over about 45 minutes or an hour or whatever yeah so let's talk about priorities.

When it comes to being a Cadet work engineer you know there's priorities right there's business priorities there's requirements there's just things you have to account for so how do you handle.

Priorities as a network engineer so when we speak about priorities as a network engineer we're talking about like I guess

we're speaking specifically only of a tree network engineering right not competing priorities you're just saying you got it what are my priorities that are can cheer okay so well ultimately your priorities are driven by leadership

obviously like that's a no-brainer right that that leadership drives your priorities,

but your priorities generally as a network engineer and again this is different based on your role and what company what vertical and whatnot that you're that you're in.

Is keep the network running obviously I think it's number one for everybody and then.

From there on you know that kind of diverges out into what is you know like an MSP guy has a different set of priorities than an Enterprise guy than a.

It's my working on a military Network.

But generally yeah keep the keep the lights on I think is a bottom level he knows it's like minimum level priority for everybody every network engineer operations and maintenance.

[41:41] It's like exactly things.

[41:44] Exactly now I'm in my my role as a see POC engineer like you know I live in the lab so I have I have like mayfly networks that I get.

Break and blow up and destroy or you know I or I can just beat my head against four days trying to make it work and there's no.

The only thing I worry about is the deadline right like it has to be ready by this date to deliver to the customer,

other than that whatever I get you know whatever I want that's my priority to get it all working

although you'll find that you could never just like bounce around it there's a there's a process you to build a network from the ground is always a process so yeah that on that note do you

do you get multiple see pox at the same time like other multiple ones going on,

so this Epoch the see POC itself the the lab has multiple C pox going on at the same time yes absolutely and we have multiple locations right we have one in RTP here.

San Jose Bangalore and the band London so APK anyway.

[42:45] I don't personally do more than one see pocket of time although I have had when it got really busy right before covid-19.

Hit I was doing them back to back to back to back which we're not supposed to be able to do but I was doing it because I'm so so.

[43:01] Right now I'm the only eem

guy Percy talk for the Americas that's just how it has worked out not on purpose that like I don't want to paint any weird conspiracy theories or anything that's just how it works out to the normal cycle of business so I was really busy

point is I was like super super busy one person so there were times,

yeah exactly so there were times when I would be like in what we call the customer week of a see POC and,

meanwhile the one the next one I'm jumping onto is overlapping it's build week where the coops are actually cabling everything and ask me questions about.

Software versions and stuff like that you know it's tough it can be tough but generally a see POC engineer only handles officially only handles one that's anybody that I'm interested we can give maximum.

[43:48] You know attention because it's a three-week deadline and believe it or not three weeks that might sound like a lot one of those weeks is with the customer.

But you know it actually takes a lot to get something built and tested in two weeks

yeah no I understand that a little bit not not see POC wise but I had to do an SDA so we're going to go specific for a minute right or we could be vendor agnostic and say software-defined,

access software-defined land whatever you want to call ahead to do I do a almost like a proof of concept but but,

you know in a military government World setting in a different country

and go to that country for a few weeks at things up and and then do the use cases for them live and then they asked for more of course was that's what they always do they always ask for more right and they're like hey I want you to integrate this solution with that vendor solution.

I like,

well it doesn't integrate today but let's get a hold of that vendor solution let's see what we can do you know size in this other country trying to figure this out on the fly with the other vendors technical people on the slight to and we're in the lab you know trying to get.

[44:53] One solution to work with another solution that's they're totally different you know competing vendor Solutions so yeah he's getting you get that,

so that that's that's my life too it's just it's not as formal as yours right like and we had like two weeks to set it up and be done you know so it wasn't it was not a very quicker.

We didn't have the luxury of time.

It's hard yeah dude it's not hard schedule to keep and if you don't do it they if you don't do it over and over and over again like if I if I had to do it as a one-off like you know because it's not your normal everyday.

If I did it as a one-off It's gotta be twice as hard

because I just you know over time you build that skill yeah but if you're doing it off the cuff man that's that's fine and then we had limitations to and just to show people like one of our switches couldn't route we didn't have a license for it to Route and it wasn't our switch.

[45:43] Like it wasn't like a lab switch it was a production switch in the customers Network in a different country we didn't have the flexibility to install a license to you know

make it route so I didn't route so we had to like do all these funky things and here's the thing everything else is plugged into that switch so it's like a distro or course which and,

everything else in their environment is plugged into it so think of like these vlans and everything is running through vlans across this layer 2 switch and then it's rerouting across those vlans right so everything has a / 30 link.

[46:12] Or / 31 depending on your flavor,

yeah these are all dedicated vlans for those / 30s and / 30 ones and you have this nasty logical topology but the physical topology is all like it's almost like a what

router and then everything else off the router what's that called again I don't know stick yeah something like that right but it's a switch honestly yeah okay and all the routers are hanging off that one switch or that it was like two switches but yeah,

and a cluster it's funny what you have to do to make things work sometimes and yeah and I think if I had I was talking to someone about it today actually

if I had the time I'd go back and redo everything right I would have a layer 3 device in the middle not once does it mean you're adding some addiction additional complexity just because you're trying to make it work you're almost like cutting corners but you're not.

You're making it work in the time you have right like you only have so much time Gala,

CCA lab yes yes you have an 8-hour lab now you have to figure it out right this is really the same concept except for you had 40 hours you know to figure it out which is it and you were in a totally different country I mean I don't know if anyone else knows this and maybe you do but like.

[47:19] If everyone's familiar with being in the US you go over to a different country have different power requirements and different plugs and different just what you take for granted in your country,

is not the same in other countries and so your get over there like why don't have a power for this so I don't have to write it down on top of me I went.

Primer for his career China but one of those two I went there and I got there and Country and would shift the gear there.

[47:44] All the real power adapters were wrong to put it shorter to get the power adapters replaced.

Oh that's horrible right that's horrible but it is a lesson learned for sure.

All right so let's let's do some of those other not fluffy questions but let's do some things that I think would be very impactful right so I'm going to ask some just some.

Your opinion questions.

That's good I can only give you my opinion stuff so that's great yeah I had this conversation with my son he had a

homework no homework to class assignment on facts and opinions and he just couldn't get this brass but I want an opinion was and I was like

probably headed to just break it down from like so the fact is something that you can find and it's you know well I wouldn't say factual but I wouldn't use the same word in the definition but that's usually write that that's it's a factual data points that lie verifiable yes,

opinion is your feelings about it right it's your opinion and it can't be wrong unless it's a factual incorrect opinion,

like whatever do you remember you have two kids so you probably do remember do you remember that movie Inside Out with Pixar head first of unity it was the first movie our son saw.

[48:55] Okay right right I guess it's theater days in theater sorry let me be yeah I think that's actually probably the same for my youngest as well I remember that I always think of the and I use it a lot the part of the movie where they're on the the train of thought.

And there's a box of facts and a box of opinions and like something happens and they get knocked over they get all mixed up and he's like no this happens all the time,

it's funny because that's so real like that is thoughts and opinions are facts and opinions get mixed up so much

it's all perspective right it's all your personal perspective in your experience is too and I'll even go back to like CCNA days like I remember where I thought something was a.

About CCNA gleich,

and then and it wasn't it was just like a Cisco specific thing versus a Cano another vendor specific thing like administrative distance for example

just because I can remember this I when I was first starting out in the Marine Corps and learning what Ministry of distance was for routing protocols I'm sorry I'm going technical right little technical here.

[49:58] I thought administrative distance were factual numbers that were governed by an RFC.

They're not they are not like if you go take a juniper exam the active administrator distances are different for the same routing protocols like ospf I don't know what they are about my head but.

Is that right yeah I thought the ad was you know I never looked your I think you're right though I don't think they D itself is set in RFC know and I had no idea is you either assume that.

That was just an opinion based on my experience I thought it was factual and so I'm like no this is factual information right like and I can guarantee you I probably got questions wrong on the CCNA or whatever exams because I thought this was factual information it was.

Look immutable yeah but yeah but back to the point right so here's some opinions for you right if you were going to give someone advice.

Someone that is maybe just getting out of high school just getting out of college looking for their first Network admin network engineer role what advice would you give them,

hit the I feel like I'd say I feel like I'd probably tread the ground there probably everybody else Treads or be great right by saying so but.

[51:06] The main thing is to obviously make sure that's what you want to do and if you're trying to figure out like hey.

So the first thing of course is just figure out that what you want to do right.

That's the obviously the very first before you do anything else if you're going to hate it don't do it but after that let's say this is something that interests you you're excited by it you want to keep doing it.

[51:28] If there's one I was sort of looking for.

If there's one attribute I guess I would suggest that someone have who to look for technology specifically it would be like.

Probably be ambition like the the ambition to.

[51:48] Look to say here's where I start and here's where I want to be and here's the path that gets be there and just the ambition to walk that path if you will so so somebody starting out I would say.

[51:58] You know.

It's hard obviously there's a lot of stuff to memorize and and and I think we end up losing people you know who were like this is just a bunch of memorization right and.

[52:13] So so yeah so so actually that's a really good point so and then you can see I'm not busy doing this off the cuff because I'm now thinking through it my own myself as I speak.

But it's not all just rote memorization right like if you want to learn something really learn it you got understand the history you can understand why this decisions were made.

Right so instead of instead of memorizing that the administrative distance of ospf is 110 internally you know or the the sorry the EAD of ospf is 110.

Internal or external.

[52:46] Say like okay that's some that's like a factoid that you would remember you would remember that for the exam and it doesn't mean anything by itself right.

Okay well the ad of rip is 120 why is that why do we you know okay well you know rip is older rip has less useful.

[53:05] Metrics right like HopCat is a terrible metric yes might be the worst metric right and it's older and it's just it was created first and when popped out is really all we cared about because we were transferring so little.

And and just putting in perspective right and understanding why this decisions have been made like when the ospf RFC was written.

[53:27] You know here we represent a out we wanted to be trusted more Cisco wanted to trust ospf more than rip likes as an example right I'm just spitballing I'm like the point I'm making is that it's not all a bunch of factoids right there's actual context that will help you learn it.

And understand it better than if you sat there and just stared at it except index card.

You know memorizing that you know eigrp is 90 and you know what I mean like because he had your pee came after us PF and had a had a in theory at this miss extremely complex at calculation algorithm.

Which of course most of the of the pieces of that pie never actually got put in production because they didn't work very well sorry Donny and Steve,

but yeah so we so but the point is it was newer we trusted it was Cisco trusted it more again I have to point that out right because we're talking about Cisco specific 80s as you as you as you mentioned but this context

and so with the context you can learn something if you're just memorizing something that's something you're going to forget right,

no I would have so great that advice to a survey starting out is learn the context.

Learn the history don't sit there and stare at an index card and try to just memorize everything because what happens then is you become a parent.

And you can answer everything as long as it's a book answer they're looking for you can give it right but if you ever have to think,

and you have to engineer to to invoke the name network engineer right if you have to come up with a solution.

[54:56] It's going to escape you because you're you got these tiny little boxes everything's in the tiny little box and the factoid and it's not going to be it's not going to work together no it's great I like it I like it I'll just add a couple more thoughts that I had while you're answering that question.

[55:11] And you made a comment you made it generally said that you know everything happens for a reason everything was done for a reason right and I think that's the same for like even when my

doing anything in a network so if you come into a new network your first year there it's your first Network or at your second Network whatever it was

is configured as most likely done for a reason and it's a matter of you have to figure out why it was done and

it may not make sense to you until you actually figure it out because.

[55:39] You may not know what the situation was about so just keep that in mind like don't just go remove something.

Like static routes or static ARP entries like someone else did me,

just don't go remove that stuff you know until you either figure out what they're used for or more importantly you know you have a maintenance window don't do it,

not in a maintenance window how I think that's critical right that is everything happens for a reason,

my next thing would be like.

You're not going to know everything right like even if you're starting out in the industry right and you're new and you're just out of college or just out of high school maybe you're getting your CCNA whatever like,

there's so much to learn there's so much to learn you're not going to know everything and it's okay it is totally okay

what's more important is what Tim just said right you have to have the ambition you have to have the drive you have to have a good personality those soft skills that you can't get you can't learn on your own you have to be kind of instantiated that way by your parenting or parenting upbringing

childhood something like that um you know those soft skills are critical like like if someone can kind of learn something and someone is the drive,

I don't care if they have the certification or not right like I'd rather have someone either on my team or working with me that has the drive has the motivation and can learn anything.

[57:01] Absolutely absolutely you can teach somebody without admin admin distance of ospf is yep tell you what I did to my drive and then I want to add one more thing because you just when you.

Started talking you now yeah my memory is why I like it's real then it's real so I created a so I found on Twitter along.

[57:23] Months months ago people had created like a like a 10 or some pieces of advice for Network Engineers from people who are active in the community

I liked it so much I was like hey I wonder if I can go 10 and I did I put it on my blog and I say 10 rules for new network engineers,

number one and I will this will be my number one until the day I die and I don't care if any of you know if I'll die in this hill and I'll fight anybody disagrees is guard your credibility.

Right you say you say you know you're not going to know everything that's absolutely true.

[57:52] Don't act like you know everything and specifically you know if you mess up and you messed up okay it happened you might even get fired over this mess up it might happen.

Hundred percent guarantee you.

That if you get fired and people find you lie about it people are going to find out you're going to get fat even if they can't fire you that day you are never going to make it,

right like that guard your credibility because it's the it's one of those things where it's like it's like your virginity right once you give it away it's gone yeah you know

well you got to own it right you make a mistake you gotta own it like even though you made the mistake right like what can you do right you can't actually

act right so all you can do is try to turn it on it on it and then not do it again right I mean even if you think you can get away with it you know there's always going to be

once you lose that trust you know like even if you get away with it that time right like people.

No you know like if I understand we've got they can't prove it so you gotta own it first of all you're going to get found out at some point it so I feel like you're,

I feel like I'm your dad right like if you don't tell the truth you know it's gonna be so much worse when you donate everything is tracked you know everything is tracked and everything is on.

[59:03] Logs one cameras and everything nowadays so

so anyway but I'm not saying use that as an excuse right I think or use that to be as a reason that I know I have to be credible because every day you're gonna know about it right like know you it's a state of mind you have to have that credibility and that.

You have to because like I said once it's gone once people don't trust you anymore you're not getting it back yep right that's the one I get back and then you get another job,

in the one last thing I would say since you know I asked you the question now I'm giving all the answers right in and sort of happens I guess it is,

I value your input obviously like I wouldn't I wouldn't be here yeah I would say this right stay humble right stay humble

where can everyone find you on the interwebs like if they want to keep the conversation going they want to keep talking about sd-wan they want to know what your views on whatever our where they can work and they reach out to you.

[59:55] So I have a YouTube channel and a Blog called Carpe Diem VPN.

Yeah I love them just like it thank you didn't season so the YouTube channel is still fairly new although I just realized I actually have crossed my why just recently crossed my one-year anniversary kind of 2020 is messed my time,

20 20 is mess my time up so much dude one year guy would not.

I'll believe in the year I really can't we talk about something but no I yeah and I have a Blog which I am terrible about updating.

Because actually be honest with you the reason I started the YouTube channels because I hated all of the work it took to do all the grammar and formatting

my blog so I and then I found out that he makes it takes more work to do all the video editing and you're like you an and I got more work at my plate.

So my quest to be lazy I have now expanded my reach

and of course on Twitter at one golbez jua NGO LBZ I think as of right now that's the only place that I will and probably most likely a that's probably the only place I'll ever be I can't see myself going on to any other social media Networks.

Instagram or whatever you know whatever whatever you get whatever you kids are doing these days right no I'm not.

[1:01:14] Yeah so I'll have all those in the show notes right I'll have his YouTube channel it's one year old has baby YouTube channel.

I started mine a long long time ago but I didn't do any content I like made one video and so mine was like started like seven years ago and I haven't made anything until recently so even though mine seven years old it really is like baby baby it's like six months old.

I mean your opponent tons of stuff to a dude you're killing it so it's really cool yeah yeah just throwing stuff out there see what people like what they don't like you know but enough about me right so we'll have your YouTube channel there will have your blog will have Twitter any last minute comments.

Questions concerns tips whatever.

[1:01:54] Not a lot I mean we're talking about demystifying the role of a network engineer so I would suggest that you know if the goal the target audience of this is someone just trying to start out,

I would you know I don't usually plug my own stuff but I would definitely recommend it is one of the better posts on my blogs because someone has written them all

take a look at it the one for the rules for Network Engineers there definitely is a lot there that would help you I think starting out.

Awesome will include that as well in the show notes I weren't has a direct link

to that post Tim man I appreciate it as always this is our second show together I'm sure we'll have more in the future I want to do some St and content I think they would be a lot of fun so I appreciate you thanks for joining me today and we're going to wrap up the show.

[1:02:37] I meant was going to be here thanks for having me,

all right friends that's going to close out this episode of the zigbits network design podcast thanks for listening if you have any questions comments concerns you can email me at Zig at zigbits.

You can always find me on the social that's Twitter LinkedIn and Facebook you can search for me zsiga or you can search for zigbits we have the two accounts for everything

because I don't know why we just do in today's show notes this is going to be show 71 so today's show notes are zigbits DOT text / 71 and I think I got everything there they memorized it all

I kind of remember it at all really until next time bye for now.