From An Architect to a People Leader with Damon Abruzere – ZNDP 093

ZNDP 093: From an Architect to a People Leader with Damon Abruzere

Zig Zsiga: [0:00] From an architect to a people leader with Damon abruzere episode 93 welcome back my friends nerds geeks and ziglets out.

[0:10] We have another episode of the zigbits network design podcast where zigabytes are faster than those gigabytes hey we strive to provide real-world context around technology what.

[0:22] Everybody I hope you're doing great today zsiga here and welcome to episode

93 we're getting closer to episode 100 just a couple more and we'll be episode 100 and again that's of the zigbits and network design podcast once again my name is zsiga and I'm here to help you with network engineering,

Network design and network architectures and today we are discussing we're actually going to highlight how my good friend,

Damon abruzere went from being an architect a leading architect,

to a people leader helping me today is my good friend well-known industry expert Damon abruzere,

this is going to be a similar Show Theme as Arda mystifying roll series but again we're going to highlight the transition that Damon has gone through from being a leading security architect to a leader of people,

in his new leadership role,

so some of you might resonate with that maybe your you're in that role maybe you're already in that architect position or maybe your junior or a kind of mid-tier network engineering role,

and maybe you're realizing that maybe you want to be a people leader right maybe you want to lead people versus being on the technology front maybe you don't want to learn everyday anymore,

well this show is for you a real quick we had some logistical issues when recording this conversation specifically like I like to be transparent as always specifically.

[1:46] Internet was it just not our friend on this day it was not our friend we were not friends I'm this day so because of this Damon is actually in a Starbucks for this recording I did my best to take out the background noise,

but there is still some there we felt that the conversation we had is so important and so impactful,

that we wanted to share it with you we wanted to release it even with some of the background noise there in this episode,

we sincerely hope you enjoy hey Damon thanks for joining me today really appreciate buddy how are you doing.

Damon Abruzere: [2:18] Man I'm doing great Zig appreciate the invite and looking forward to the discussion man.

Zig Zsiga: [2:23] Yeah I'm extremely excited because this is something I think a lot of people in this industry,

I have this question or have this this goal or this thought and so just to kind of set the stage real quick we're going to talk about how going from maybe a technical role or an architect role and kind of transitioning into that kind of

director or management or leadership role and that's kind of the gist of today's.

Conversation little different than we normally do we're morally highly Technical and design focused but you know the whole point here is really to understand what are the paths

for you as a network engineer Network designer Network architect where do you go forward so Damon's here with me today he's going to help me

answer some of these questions kind of paint that picture since he's recently just made that transition.

And before we do I'm gonna give Damon a chance to just kind of introduce himself so Damon give a little bit about who you are what you do maybe a you know Cliff Cliff Notes version maybe a couple minutes and then we'll jump into the topic at hand.

Damon Abruzere: [3:23] Yeah man I appreciate it yeah I'll try to keep it somewhat brief.

After 23 years man you'd be kind of kind of build up the background so yeah currently right now work for Cisco I'm a delivery leader for our public sector organization,

one of our military customers that I support have a team of people that I am a people leader for that I manage and,

we as we do our deliveries for our customers so previous to that right 23 years man I've been doing this long time,

get out of college back in 98 of course in college I was doing some technical stuff just as in college kid would try to make some money right fixing computers and doing other things right,

so started out network engineering Network delivery or actually it was a,

bigger company back in the day of EDS but we did some work with the military and whatnot so I've been involved with UD and all the three-letter agencies of the northern Virginia's easy for,

the better part of twenty three years right through that of been a network card,

network engineer I've served as a security architect for several programs including the F-35,

I'm training system that we did trees that are right after that rather worked overseas in Europe.

[4:42] For two of our combatant commands was a network engineering at lead ran an awkward about 28 people helped develop a sock so the bulk of my background has been mostly in security,

network security more recently I was a security architect before I took this role where I'm at now,

and as you know right so I did a lot of business mapping and,

it's really worked with customers to develop their short medium and long-term planning when it came to cyber security products in specifically I kind of became a.

I guess what you would consider a nice expert at the time but now there's so many people doing it they they've gone way past me at this point.

Zig Zsiga: [5:23] Same here man I same here.

Damon Abruzere: [5:26] So I'm here now man you know I addition to Cisco I do a lot of other things I'm an Adjunct professor at James Madison University I'm in The Scouting I do I'm even a high school high school golf coach site.

Some people say I'm a little crazy I do a lot of things with I'm very passionate about,

the it business and what I've done over the last you know two decades and I'm looking forward to see where it's going to take me in the future you know in a big portion of that is what we're going to talk about today.

Zig Zsiga: [5:53] Now this is great thanks Damon I appreciate it man and we work together so everyone knows that in our day,

Damon and I work together we've done some stuff over the over the years and that's how we met but so real quick you know Damon has come from a very technical background hands on

leading technical staff being an architect security go to Resource SME so whole bunch of technical things right so you know I'm just going to jump in Damon you know,

what are you what are we focusing on now right when you transition,

from an architect type position or that technical type position and do that that leadership role that people leader if you will what are you focusing on now.

Damon Abruzere: [6:35] Man I tell you there's a lot of pieces to pick apart but in general right it's really whatever it takes for me.

To make other people successful and I really really.

It's been kind of a passion of mine right so I go back to my undergrad in college I wasn't supposed to be a high school teacher identification through technology education I've always enjoyed teaching I've always enjoyed helping people but over the years you know,

you do starting out you build up your what we would call our IQ writer intelligence and that's kind of the mode that I've always kind of thought of.

You spent years and years learning all this stuff I'm studying probably certs I'm trying to get us see see I am trying to you know I do everything I can to learn all this stuff well at some point.

[7:19] I'd say about ten years ago and I did get into a leadership role in another company.

I started to make that transition well I want to take what I know and start,

teaching with other people and making them successful and really I do a lot now of trying to remember what I did before and putting myself in the individual contributor shoes the engineer shoes,

and trying to figure out what it was that made me successful and for you know there's you know I've been successful I've also had my failures,

and as much as you want to try to help people not fail.

At some point you try to guide them through what it's going to take so you know for me if right now my focus is literally trying to figure out how to translate what I did before.

To this new leadership expectation and what they're looking to get out of me and I've had some great leaders in mind,

my past man I've had some managers and leaders that I've worked toward that I've pulled a lot from and didn't realize it great so now I'm kind of in I'm still processing a lot of love.

I'm now starting to repeat you know what this guy told me or this other person so it sounds like when you figure out how close you are with your parents and you start repeat things that your dad said to you when you were younger but.

Zig Zsiga: [8:29] If you come your dad right you don't realize it

it's like over time you become your dad but it's the same thing you become the leaders that have led you those good leaders and and I like to you probably merge the things that you like between those leaders you have really good leaders and you can merge some of those leadership characteristics and those examples

specific times it's not even like they tell you how to do something they're doing it for like they're doing it and that just the act of doing is like oh,

that's how you lead right that's how you effectively lead and that's what.

Damon Abruzere: [8:58] Yeah well I'll be a completely honest and we're gonna have a real conversation today right I wasn't always the easiest person to lead because I was very independent.

And I'm still kind of that way right I always want to do things myself I didn't want people to rely or I didn't want to rely on other people.

But at the same time you sort of learn where you can where it's acceptable to to start asking questions and to start asking for help right,

and I for better or worse I needed to do that over time so I know where I failed and I know where I made mistakes,

not that everybody's going to do that but that's my personality right so now I'm I'm a lot more empathetic,

is probably the best word to use empathy is a huge portion of my day-to-day Mantra if you will and in addition to Integrity right so,

I've always treated everything with Integrity anytime I put a document out I knew I cross the t's and Dot the I's if my name goes on it there's a lot of Pride there right and I really just want to instill that into the people that rely on me now right it's not.

[10:01] I don't see myself I really do make a distinction between them manager and a leader I'm not managing people I hate that I don't even like that concept.

Because I'm not trying to manage another person I'm trying to guide them and lead them to their own path because they're going to have their own way of successfully getting through their career at some point they may have,

the aspirations to be of people leader or to be a director or to run a company whatever that is I want to help them get their prey so,

I really do believe in a lot of these there's those things when it comes to emotional intelligence out of the house right and I'm trying to put those in play now.

With the folks that do rely on me.

Zig Zsiga: [10:40] So I think there's a couple things there's you know there's the definition or the difference between what a boss last manager is and then what a true leader is and so there's that aspect,

which I think would be good to Define that because I think there are two different things the boss manager is very different than the actual leader what how would you define that.

Damon Abruzere: [11:00] Wow you know I have to be honest I do listen to a lot of not it's all good.

Zig Zsiga: [11:02] Put you on the spot put you on the spot.

Damon Abruzere: [11:05] I don't and I'm going to tell you right now I don't have a great answer for it because I pulled from so many different people kind of your point earlier some of those resources are tend to listen to a lot of audiobooks,

immediately I'm a huge Simon sinek fan and I know a lot of a lot of people follow him and but I also listen to I must say it's some people aren't a fan but you know I listen to Tony Robbins,

Degrassi Oceanic and Ray dalio,

and even Daymond John right some the Shark Tank guys ready to I listen to a lot of influences believe it or not you can actually learn a lot from 50 Cent to if you listen to his books and I know people are kind of like,

what is this guy talking about but honestly and that's really what I do is I take a lot from Individual people I mean.

You know you were still Trevor Noah talked about how he was brought up the way he brought it was brought up he pulled in a lot of influences.

Down in South Africa so what he's doing now and he's a comedian right so people but they don't make the relationship,

but he's leading a group of people if you guys have followed in pretty much followed him in the last couple of years into being that you know of course they get in a lot of politics when I get in there but he's a leader in terms of influencing people,

to think for themselves and to be able to take action and things like that right so back to your question right.

A manager and a boss is someone who really is about themselves in my opinion.

[12:28] And they want to dictate his or be very prescriptive in the way that they're handling their business because a lot of those folks want that control.

[12:37] And it's not always a negative thing by the way that some people are very successful at it and they could do it but they're very in terms of what Simon would say it's a very finite think great it's not.

It's not something that you expand past what am I going to do in the future and how am I helping other people.

Leader is someone who sets the example a leader is someone who doesn't necessarily ask others to do things they make it determined people rely on them and look at them as Kasich.

And then they provide that leadership and and it's not about I'll get in and I'll give you some examples very I know a little over the place but I'll have some folks ask me some questions hey how should I handle this or how should I handle that well I've learned now.

A manager would just say go do it this way great X y&z being very prescriptive a leader would be like hey have you thought about executing in this manner,

to get them to think about it because nine times out of ten you'll find that the individual will come up with the answer themselves and they know how they already know the process they just want someone to confirm that that's what they're thinking about race.

Any times maybe they don't know the answer but you've given enough to kind of food for thought let me think about what he just asked me.

To lead them down that path and then once their brain starts kicking in they figure it out themselves anyway and all you did was become the Catalyst right so.

Zig Zsiga: [13:54] You give them the ability to realize that they can figure it out right like they can.

The analytics part of their brain and then they can weigh the pros and cons and make the right decision at least make a decision on their own and then learn from it to when it's all and then they don't have to come to you either every time when they have a question,

because they can be like hey I did I figured this out last time now I can figure it out moving forward it's like the whole teach someone how to fish versus giving him a fish,

that right like it's that's what you're doing you're literally teaching them how to do this and that that's awesome like that that's a great definition.

Damon Abruzere: [14:30] Yeah exactly and again like I said it's not a single definition there's other aspects to it right and again I could probably go all over the place but I just think it's really important right to set that example to be the leader to put them in a good position I would rather see the folks that work with me,

see I always that's another thing is I'm very keen on words.

[14:49] When people say my people or they say my team or they say the people that work for me,

that's very myopic and I don't I don't have that attitude I'm very careful and I'm sure I've said it before it's not that I'm booked out fall.

But my Mantra is my attitude is we are on a team I just happened to be the person that has to be out front great and I'm the one,

and at times I'm not out front and I know when to back off and I'll let the other people Shine Tonight it doesn't hurt me to make them look good right that's it that was a big thing some Army

gs-14 taught me one day when I was working for one of our customer you know it doesn't hurt you to make them look good I'm like you know what you're right,

I don't have to be the guy shining I don't have to be the one in front of the Limelight I'll let other people do now just go you know very well in any other company there's a lot of companies,

we hire great people there's a lot of smart people there's a lot of intelligent people you just got to figure out ways to let them shine and let them find their own path right and I'm I'm wholeheartedly about that I don't want the glory I don't want the fame I don't want,

you know all the accolades I'd rather someone else get it you know but to me that's what determines success the problem able to put that person in that position or help them Elevate themselves.

That's exhausting you know I really do believe that it yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [16:10] So that that's awesome right I love that I learned something when I was in the Marine Corps I saw a leader and for people references like a probably guessed a Staff Sergeant or a gunnery sergeant.

[16:22] And he do nothing about it and I was an it and he knew nothing about it and I watched him lead once and even though he didn't know anything about it.

He knew the people that could do the job like he knew who

is good at certain things so like for the references like a firewall person or you know your general routes which are your collaboration or whatever technology you want to throw in there right he knew the people that knew the technology and he knew that they would get it done and so he,

he led that way he didn't need to know the Tak you know he didn't need to know the ones and zeros like we do

he was a leader a true leader and he was able to be like okay do you I'll step back you go ahead and you know get the job done on the firewalls or whatever the

you know the case might be and then he would come back and Lead again right and he would always highlight the team and that was like years ago for me and that was a huge example of

you know true leadership right like I mean he didn't even know the job like I think that was huge so for us in this field like we know the job right we know the architecture we know you know like you know Knack or whatever the

the solution is and I find these days it's hard for me,

to kind of let it go right it's hard for me to not step in right and take over right and I have that I have a personality issue for me like I want to take over right like if I'm on a call with someone I want to jump in and I'm like nope I got to pump the brakes I got a,

let let them do their thing.

Damon Abruzere: [17:49] It's funny but you know what's funny about that I just had someone ask me I've only been in this role for about 90 days about three months.

And they said what's been the hardest thing so far I said keep in my mouth shut in meetings you know me because it really is true because there are times,

when something comes up especially when it's security-related right my brain still.

Sweet Berry I know who to talk to I know in the company I know who I would give to you let's put it that way I know who I would ask I know where I would go for information I know we're out him for me I'm just like okay then keep your mouth shut.

Let me figure it out and then if they don't get to that point then offer up hey if you consider talking to such and such so yeah that's that's been we go back to the original question you asked about the transition.

That's been one of the biggest things.

Zig Zsiga: [18:41] Yeah so I have a question here about traps right like is that one of the traps you can fall into I mean you're going from a technical role to a non-technical role but you still have that technical expertise

so I know for me that's a trap I fall into you like I want to I want to help right and now I want to solve the solution I want to find the solution and solve the problem right and so like,

I want if I'm in a conversation with someone I have to like legit like stop talking let them

work through their thought processes try things and figure it out is that a trap for you.

Damon Abruzere: [19:15] Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [19:17] Is there any other traps any other traps.

Damon Abruzere: [19:20] Oh wow well.

Let's be honest once you get into a leadership position then you're part of different discussions and different meanings right.

When you're an engineer trying to come up with Solutions you're kind of an idea fair right you know we always want to think of all of the different aspects,

all the different angles

and then try to choose the best course of action right so will will come up with our priority list very well do the top three if you will we could solve it this way this way this way they all have their balance right it's kind of like project management we got cost schedule and quality right,

the triangle and you have to balance that when you're talking about doing architectures and solutions which is ingrained in my head and your head and everybody that does our job.

But now as a leader you're in different meetings so we come in an idea fairy make may or may not work in your benefit because now that you've mentioned it and you're using that engineering.

I'll send you get signed up to do something which is okay most of the time right because we still have to worry about our personal brand exposure and things like that.

But now you get signed up to do something you have to solve that problem and it's not a technical problem anymore it's a people problem or it's a organizational thought which all excites me by the way I don't mind it at all but it is kind of a trap.

[20:41] You always want to come up with a solution for everything but you can't tackle everything.

That's why we have the group of people we have all the leadership that we have especially on the management side of the house the people we were ships out of the house because there's.

A lot of people that need to solve a lot of problems but the Trap you get into as an engineer is that you overthink everything,

and you think you have a quick answer for everything and all the sudden well we need to we need to drive that down to the solution so,

you know you might find yourself leading a separate effort that you didn't you weren't expected which sometimes it can be good and other times just,

when it comes time management becomes a problem.

Zig Zsiga: [21:18] Let's go to say you end up getting so much on your plate can you actually get anything done right like you're so busy now with all these other things it's almost like you're trying to be that individual contributor still and you.

Damon Abruzere: [21:30] While and then I'm back right I'm back to being an engineer again because what happens when you're an engineer an architect,

you get a lot of stuff during your plate you get a lot of projects and what do you have to do you got to take the list of them you got to prioritize them based on whatever the reason schedule or difficulty or you know your ability to get it done and you work your way to the top down at least that was my prayer.

I'm in the same boat now it's just not all the technical stuff now it's all these other issues and problems that we need to solve so,

and probably is a trap but it's still something that that people have to work on and they make that transition that doesn't change so what did I do before and how did I solve it you're not going to translate that to these new problems right.

Zig Zsiga: [22:08] Yeah the problems is a little different right so it's not a technical problem anymore it's.

But a team problem or an organizational initiative or it's just a different,

problem statement and now the team has to solve it and I think that's probably a big lesson learned at least for me is,

you know you're not doing it all by yourself right like and you can't write you can't do it all by yourself so it's not that you're not doing it by yourself you literally can't if you are trying to do it by yourself you're going to work,

80 90 hours a week I mean that's it's just too much so you have a team for a purpose or you have the team for a reason.

So those are some traps I just wanted to I wanted to highlight some traps right some of those things those gotchas those things that like,

well if you're going to do this transition right if you are listening today and you're going to make that transition for yourself you know here's some traps that you could fall into right.

Damon Abruzere: [23:05] And the great part is by the will great part about that is you probably already experiencing you just have to learn how to translate them that's all.

Zig Zsiga: [23:12] Exactly right he's gotta get his kind of tweak a little right you gotta adapt just a little so here's a question for you right and this is again this isn't scripted like a I don't script things really so.

What is one of the reasons to make this transition like what I mean maybe you can go some of your examples or maybe just generalize if you want like either way but like what are some of the reasons to make this transition from an architecture technical role to a a,

leader if you will.

Damon Abruzere: [23:40] Sure there's probably some good and not so good reasons for different people people out everyone's got their own motivations

I'll start with my right I've always been the type of person that wanted to lead people like I mentioned right I just I've just enjoyed it in order for me to have the greatest effect across the entire organization

great.

It was cool to be a team like seeing team leader and Technical lead for four or five people I was a captain for a team worked out great I had fun had a great group of guys and actually lady that I work with,

um and it was it was great and we learned a lot from each other but I've always itching to find that okay then how can I do more so I started getting involved in more.

And then I started looking at really the you know what's your perspective you know I'm not a spring chicken anymore,

I'm almost 45 years old I've been doing this for a while and it's some point I want to retire right or I want to stop doing this work and I know I'm it's not,

you know for me my motivation is I don't want to retire like my father because he use years old or 71 years old when he retired work for him.

[24:47] But that's not something I want so what do I want to do until I reach that point that's a legitimate.

Reason for people to start questioning where they're at in your career so I had spent 18 19 20 years working my way up technically and I'm busting my butt trying to keep up with technology and it takes a lot of energy.

Along the way I had two kids got married and I'm moving around the world you know at some point you get a little worn out.

Zig Zsiga: [25:16] Was letter,

its ability to write you got other responsibilities outside of work right family and whatnot you mentioned kids and moving around but then like I mean I've been saying this for a while I mean if you're in this field and you're a technical person you got to prepared to learn something new everyday I mean you gotta

if you're not keeping up I mean you're going to be lost right like it's changing.

Fast and so you have to literally keep up with the changes on a daily if not weekly at a minimum but daily,

is really more more probably realistic these days things just change so fast and we can't like even for any technical decisions or any technical designs or anything like that we have to know what's leading the way

and how we how we account for that and so,

I guess what I'm trying to say fry when else is listening is that at some point you have to make that decision that if you're in this field are you okay with learning something new every single day for the rest of your career because that's what you're going to have to do.

Damon Abruzere: [26:15] Well remember though to let you know that it is a decision right it's what you're going to learn.

Because I will tell you for sure right now I am still learning every single day but I enjoy it like it's just a different learning it's a different aspect it's not the ones and zeros I mean think about it.

Did you ever think 15 years ago whatever it was you got into the field.

We're doing routes which talking we're learning about ospf and eigrp and we're going layer 2 switching and things like that,

we still have that but that's considered like the foundation now and I enjoy that order,

and now we're talking about you have to know python you got to be in the dev net you're doing automation tactics things like that scripting.

I don't think I'll let you know when you said scripting to me when I was in college you had that you were here expect to be a programmer straight you're going to be a software guy.

So anyway the world keeps changing and it's progressing and it's just getting more complicated,

at the same time some things have gotten easier right but you have to really ask yourself again back to your point do you want to continue putting an effort into something like that.

For me.

I still enjoy it I love it I still love technology I'm not passionate about it like I used to be to be honest with you I'm passionate about people.

[27:34] I'm passionate about moving it forward and and getting them to make their own way right so my motivations change,

and that's just for me personally but has the learning stuff absolutely not I've just opened a whole new book with things I never did before.

Zig Zsiga: [27:49] Yeah you're still learning right you're just learning different things,

right I gotcha and that's a good lesson that right you're going to learn no matter what I hear that you just learning different things.

So I want to it sounds like for everyone that's listening you just have to have a goal in mind like what is your end goal right and work back from that like what do you want to be doing you know for your career and then.

Have the have the steps almost like a journey and you know what are those steps to get from here to there and in be okay with those steps right what does that mean for you for your career and your life,

and what do you have to do to achieve that goal right that end goal so I think that's great.

Damon Abruzere: [28:33] And let's let's not dismiss the people who don't want to change.

And I totally right I told you wanted to respect that R2 because I do have people that I Mentor today that and they're like.

Don't want to manage people I don't like doing it I want to stay Technical and that's how I see my career and I'm like you know what,

great that's perfect I want you on my team because I know you dedicated to it.

And I know you're going to do a good job no honestly right I mean I'm not prepping you to be a people leader I'm prepping you to continue driving that learning that technical,

working on your next ccie your next dub net certification your next customer that brings you a new.

Some people drive all that so anyway yeah I just want to make sure that I know you got a lot of different listeners and some of them are probably like why don't.

I don't want to change like I don't care what Damon says like you know he wanted to do that but at the same time fully respecting what that is and I want to give Credence to as well too.

Zig Zsiga: [29:33] No that's great because you're right not everyone's going to want to make that change right I don't I don't write and that's nothing against being a people leader I still want to be technical but even in my role today and I'm an architect today and

at Cisco and.

I'm less hands on that I was 10 years ago 15 years ago I have a hard time finding the time to get in the command line and and lab things out right I'm four I'm finding,

I'm spending more time talking to Business Leaders about their business initiatives and making them successful

and then you know a signing capabilities towards that today,

and what that really correlates from me as I'm spending more time in presentations and Powerpoints and Word Documents that I am actually on the command line and Building Solutions out so it's kind of a different transition even from an architecture level it's you kind of.

[30:28] You focus on other things right you focus on other things and so I would love to stay technical in lab things out every day and if I don't,

force myself to do it I won't do it do you know I mean like I'm not going to do it because there's a need at work it's more of a.

I do it because I love it and so I'm the kind of person that wakes up at four in the morning and labs for three hours you know because I want to stay proficient man I want to do I want to

do sdn and do some sort of soft find data center right and in figure out how zero trust truly can work right all these things because

for me as an architect and this is a little different than the show showed topic right but as an architect

I do better talking about these things if I know how it works like if I know that I've gotten it to work and I can be like yeah this is how it works like and I did it last week you know I did it last week this is exactly how you do it.

That's my my soapbox.

Damon Abruzere: [31:25] You know what you know what that's that's a great point and and for those that are listening to that step brightening and going back to the original kind of Focus right it what was the transition I was I was an engineer.

Doing all the Hands-On stuff CL is the buoys all that stuff figurations software doing scripting everything I could.

When I moved into that architect role right several years ago I did do that transition I was doing the same thing you're doing now I would still do the upgrades and Ice just so I knew what the process was I knew what what worked and what didn't work.

Because if I'm in front of.

Engineers saying hey you need to go do this and then they come back and I'm like dude this doesn't work the way it's supposed to I want to know that before they come to the right so,

um but then he got to be now I'm not just the nice guys an engineer now I have to know the toll collector of our product line for security.

When that started happening.

I kind of had to back off a little bit because if I'd start trying to learn and get to be an expert on still watching Firepower back to asa's all the stuff that I had to do right Dean acts come and everything.

Zig Zsiga: [32:30] Everything yeah.

Damon Abruzere: [32:32] You can't do it and then that next transition really was what you're talking about.

Now I'm expected to be in front of high-profile customers I'm talking cios ciso of cities.

States counties military Federal government's in my position I was expected to talk to everybody from federal to sled to even some civilian workers.

And now I literally don't have the time because I'm so focused on their business.

And I knew that I knew that I had to focus on their business what is their need what are we really trying to achieve with this and I start,

don't presentations and I start doing the journey map thing lies you and I worked on before right so what are those business cases that were trying to do what's the vision of the company and how remapping that to our Solutions and then being okay,

with once we came up with that map of handyman for someone to go do the.

[33:29] It's okay now there's a group of people who are experts and they are working on the stuff everyday and they're still hand jamming the keyboard.

So we've learned it up for him we've been successful now how can they go do the work and it was kind of like,

this is the transition you know this is this is what it's going to feel like so what's the next step so engineer architect working at you know the high level you know with all these high-level customers.

People people management people leadership.

You know what what can I do to have that biggest effect and it just kept growing and growing I think that's really the story that's really the timeline that it took over years and years for me to figure out where I'm at today so yeah no great point on all of that stuff sleep,

if you just have to kind of look at all of it figure out where do you want to be and you might stop somewhere in that ladder you might say you know what.

This is it for me I'm happy this is where I'm at I'm having an effect on being helpful and I'm adding value,

and that's where I'm at so for you if you stay there do you do great at it you're going to be you're going to be good at it and that's what you may wake up one morning ten years from now and be like you know what.

I kind of want the next thing or whatever you know you never know.

Zig Zsiga: [34:42] Yeah so I think you like as a person have to make that decision based on what makes you happy as a total

thing in your life like it's not just the career it's what's the situation that you're with your family and your children if you have children

do you have a good work-life balance which we are terminating that now is work life Harmony right are you working

40 hours a week are you working 90 hours a week right and if you're working 90 hours a week are you happy with that right I mean you're most likely salaries you're not getting paid 90 hours a week right like

your salary so but like again like there's there's positions like that and if that makes you happy then great

but it's a total picture it's a total end-to-end life like design and you have to be okay with it and then you have to reserve the right.

To change it when you're not okay right if you're not happy with the situation you want to progress in your career you want to do something else you have to as a person Reserve that right in my opinion.

Damon Abruzere: [35:43] Great absolutely not hundred percent agree and that's you know we're here talking about my story and I appreciate it but there definitely is everyone has their own individual you know steps in their life and what they want I know we're getting a little existential here but it really is true right.

Zig Zsiga: [35:59] So next question right so so for you and maybe this is going to generalize this to you know what we talk a lot about skill sets right

especially the technical skill sets and whatnot so as a people leader

being clear on the word and I want to see a manager right as a people leader right leading people what are you prioritizing now for you as a skill sets what are you prioritizing you to learn and develop and what not.

Damon Abruzere: [36:26] Yeah I think I mentioned most of them before it started with empathy and Wilson right trying to understand where people are at at their stage.

That's a huge opening now technically speaking there's a lot of stuff I've had to work right I'm used to you know.

You and I could be asked to jump on the plane and go,

solve a problem somewhere that there's a huge issue some networks down some something's gone crazy and we'd hop on the plane and have to pull some Cisco live presentations and learn the technology we weren't great at right,

so technically speaking there is the technical piece on the character that I'm not doing anymore so what am I replacing it with I'm learning the business more I'm learning more about numbers,

I'm actually learning about the sales motions and what happens within the business and within the company and not actually not just with Cisco just in general.

[37:17] How do other people do how to other organizations right because there may be something out there that I can bring to the table,

even within the company that we haven't done or we have thought about it we can put energy into because we do have this motion we do have Direction great leadership has given us Direction what we're going to do and how we're executing but maybe something comes out that I've learned from someone else so.

I'm in a leadership new leadership cohort within the company which is awesome that they provide that to us I do a lot of you know small little leadership and.

Emotional intelligence and learning about people and back more in the psychology side of it really.

[37:57] To be honest with you I mean that's exciting I took psychology back in college yeah I know and you really.

How does the brain work how do people think what are their triggers what are the what emotionally attaches them to the work what makes them want to come to work everyday,

I mean all of this stuff now are like I've got 12 folks on the team now and I've got to figure out everyone has a different conversation I do one-on-ones every week,

I'm having news individual conversations with them to figure out where they're at not only at work but how far,

there's a gray area there's also a line right how much can you talk and how much they want to divulge to you because they may not want to divulge anything but you're trying to figure out you know what's going on with this person so.

I know it sounds kind of weird right but there is a there's a mental side of this that you have to start developing to be successful in my opinion you could I could roll into this job and just do,

the HR stuff you know I could I could approve time cards and approve expense reports and check all the boxes and I can have a successful career.

For all intensive purposes for me that's not success to me it's.

Taking those people making them successful let's get into the next button there's a lot more to it than just the check boxes ready to anyway that's that's how I approached you I would hope that other people do that for me and I've been fortunate enough to have leaders that I've worked with.

That is guided me towards that thought process.

Zig Zsiga: [39:17] That's awesome because that's a good leadership thought process right because you care you care so much about your people you're going to make them successful and you're going to learn about them and really tailor their like their plan for each.

Damon Abruzere: [39:33] They're successful and at the end of the day if someone wants to say hey Damien you did a great job I mean I'm not looking for the pat on the back but if that happens I guess what that does for me that improves my chances for my next.

Step or whatever that's going to be it's going to be a bigger role that's my effect that I have on the people I don't necessarily care about myself and I'm patient enough to find out what's going to happen based on their success.

So for me that's just how I judge.

Any other people have a different focus of different mentality maybe they're motivated by money maybe they're motivated by pain maybe the motivated by tension I don't know and that's okay too again I'm not judging what other people think what,

I think is a little bit differently than some so I'm motivated by people and their success.

Zig Zsiga: [40:18] So when I was a NCO in the Marine Corps

one of the things that that we had to do is we had to when we lead people leave Marines at least back then we actually manage their entire life especially if it's a junior Marine it's not

just like the job like we actually managed we teach them all about finance and how to live and how to manage their life and how to you know even with they're going to get married like

we have like,

pre Mary interviews like no joke we actually like you have to get approval to get married if you're like pretty pretty pretty Junior in the military and least in the Marine Corps on our Command.

Um and so like that would be a huge

issue or huge that's always been a huge transition for me because I'm so used to being like okay what's how's your family doing right like how are you doing financially asking all of these questions right and in this world you kind of can

right like you got to kind of like see how the person is not everyone is okay with that right some people love it and they want that they want that.

That true leader that's going to help them with everything that they can help them with and then other people are like nope I don't want you knowing anything about my personal life I just,

the job right and that's it.

Damon Abruzere: [41:34] And that's okay.

Zig Zsiga: [41:36] And that's yeah exactly.

Damon Abruzere: [41:38] And you have to be okay with it because there's some people that want to control that situation and it's perfectly fine but I've also seen people make the transition,

to not wanting assistance for having that preconceived notion that they've worked for people that are all up in their business and they go home,

so when I came in as the new leader they were very standoffish there was a wall there great defense mechanism which is fine right there a lot of lot of us having some quieter place than right.

But over time you know getting trust and building that relationship with that person I've seen people open up.

And then all the sudden be like dude I really appreciate the fact that you know we can have these conversations because in my one-on-ones with people it's very real I'm like,

you can say anything there's no judge here there's no fear of retribution it's literally just the conversation between people and if we could fit work in and make you successful that's kind of like.

I see.

Zig Zsiga: [42:34] Yeah icing on the cake right how do you build that trust like what are there some ways to build that trust.

Damon Abruzere: [42:40] Man it's I don't know if that's something you can really describe.

Zig Zsiga: [42:44] Okay I was just I had to ask right because we build trust with our customers right we build trust with Business Leaders we build trust on that side but like how do you build trust with someone that you're just starting to lead right like how do you.

Damon Abruzere: [42:55] It's really hard it's different for everybody right you know I'll be I'll be the one to say I'm guilty of even in some leadership calls that I have to join,

I've always throwing jokes out and being kind of like the happy you know let's make everybody laugh but you know very well there's some people who are under like can't be serious for two minutes like I am serious but I'm like trying to get you to loosen up a little bit.

And I think it's just something that I do it's not something that I really thought about it's just how I feel comfortable with people,

you and I think will you and I met it was kind of like I don't even think we talked about work that much it was more about you know just trying to get to know each other and.

Zig Zsiga: [43:33] About soccer.

Damon Abruzere: [43:40] But you know you find that one Niche than that someone can relate to right I think is a good way to think about that right again for you and I was kind of like it was soccer for whatever.

And that that's not actually we don't even talk about soccer much.

Zig Zsiga: [43:55] No we don't really talk that much anymore we're both so busy doing stuff so.

Damon Abruzere: [43:58] Yeah but you find that one thing with your people the people that you work with right and you grab onto it and the trust comes with you.

Holding whatever information they provide to you and in keeping it private or or when they ask for assistance that you do the best effort you can to find that assistance right and because it may not be me to be a I might have to ask.

My leadership team be my chain of command or whatever,

hey can we accommodate this person because of their situation and I now have to be that translator if I've done a good job and I've translated that story to the people who mean you have the purse strings right and can make that decision.

Then that person.

Builds a lot of trust with me even if I'm not successful and doing it hey man this is what we did but here's the effort we put into it and they appreciate that.

Then they can rely on you to say hey look at something else comes up I can bring it to the right so that's to me that's actually a lot more important than even just the workshops.

Zig Zsiga: [44:58] That's awesome that's awesome all right so we got a couple more questions right and we're going to start wrapping up so what has worked for you the best in this transition I know you're in the role for 90 days roughly right 3 months but so far what does work the best.

Damon Abruzere: [45:12] What's work the best man communication honestly I mean when I when I looked at one.

Tactical aspect or one skill set it's communicating with the team making sure that we're having newsreel conversations we just talked about and building that trust in a lot of it and not being very prescriptive about work.

I'm not coming in and you know saying Thou shalt do this right if I was in their role and their shoes as the engineer I do have my ways about how I would do it I know how I would approach it.

But not really expressing that great so communicate in a way of where I'm redoing mostly the 80 80 20 rule where we will talk about the 80/20 rule well what can I do 20% over get 80 percent effectiveness.

Really for me it's 80% listening in 20% caulking.

So that's probably been the most effective so far outside of just some of the learning that I've had to go through and taking small little classes and really listening to my leadership and being coachable that's another huge.

Zig Zsiga: [46:20] Being coachable.

Damon Abruzere: [46:21] Being coachable.

Not having an ego right I know I'm giving you like three or four but like all of this combined or things that I have to work on right yeah being coachable is a huge one you cannot come into a new leadership role and expect that you're just going to do it and maybe you can.

You know maybe you have the skillset maybe you got the job.

But you know humility is a huge nerd and understanding that you still need to learn right now I'm like remember we talked about it I'm not learning skill sets anymore I'm not learning technical things I'm learning about being an elite.

And who best to learn that from from the people who have done it and don't have an ego about it right so those are there's a two huge things communication and you know check your ego at the door.

Zig Zsiga: [47:05] Nice I love it I love it all right so what is what last thoughts recommendations comments would you give everyone that's listening today.

Damon Abruzere: [47:17] Proof man I thought we covered quite a bit.

Do what you feel is right you know do do what's in your heart do if you're technically gone you want to stay technical go down that path right but be open to.

Okay maturing and understanding it I might change my mind that one day you know one one,

one day down the road but then having the ability to be able to consume all of those things you need to move and take that next step right so,

I don't know it's a huge transition to it's something that I look forward to you know I've been in a management leadership role before.

And I would say 10 years ago I handled things a lot differently so I've recognized that change in that,

that progression that I've made I'm not the same person I am today you have to realize that you're going to change you're going to be different you're not going to I'm not motivated like I was before to do different things I'm motivated by different things now,

so you have to be willing to shift and change and be flexible so you know in addition to all the other things we brought up today I think we know that's that's another.

Another huge thing is people think about making some sort of transition into commission and reach out to people don't be afraid.

One of the biggest sorry this is Janelle come to me one of the biggest things I did was I started scheduling one-on-one meetings with our leadership and not just within Cisco but other people that I knew.

[48:46] People have built relationships with 40 other Customs hey how did I come to work what did I do.

That made you think of me when I came on the flip side what are some things that I can improve on.

Don't be afraid to ask these questions because believe it or not I think some people are waiting for people to come to them and ask this questions to get that feedback and it means that you're invested.

You're mentally invested you're physically invested and you care about what you're doing enough to ask how to improve.

So if you can approach that and look for other people.

Have some humility be coachable I think everybody's going to have at least a frame in mind they need to be able to try to make that transition.

Zig Zsiga: [49:31] Damon that was awesome man I appreciate it where can the listeners find you if they want to keep this conversation going they want to ask you some pointed leadership questions where can they find you on the interwebs.

Damon Abruzere: [49:44] Oh man well first and foremost the in anybody can email me at.

My email address at work and we'll post that on the abruzere daa BR U Ze at cisco.com but everywhere else it's the adversary almost social media anywhere you can you can find me if you want to find out about.

Something cool pictures and take them on IG but from a technical work perspective linkedin's probably the best so we'll put my LinkedIn profile out there and Facebook Instagram I'm a I'm everywhere.

Zig Zsiga: [50:14] You're everywhere.

Damon Abruzere: [50:16] I have a Facebook group.

You know we can also post that people can ask questions that I just kind of started off and it's more about a mindset Innovation you know so we can we can tackle that as well to to yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [50:30] I'll get all those from you and me.

Damon Abruzere: [50:31] Mostly personal stuff.

Zig Zsiga: [50:33] Hey do this good I'll get all that stuff for me and we'll put him in the show notes so everyone can access

you know all those links and ask you additional questions I think people are going to want to ask additional questions right I think there's a lot of people that are at this this kind of fork in the road and they're ready to make a decision they just don't know,

what what's the other side right do I stay tactical or do I do I become a people leader right and I'll be very clear I'll leaders very different than a manager right so and that that's a very

different distinction so Damon thank you so much but I appreciate it it was a great show I hope you have a good day man thanks.

Damon Abruzere: [51:11] Nah man I really appreciate it thanks for inviting me and good luck to all your listeners and I look forward to hearing from some people.

Zig Zsiga: [51:20] Hey friends nerds geeks and ziglets that's going to close out today's episode the zigbits network design podcast where we talked about how.

You can go from being an architect to a people leader with my good friend Damon abruzere hey Today's Show notes will be at the zigbits dot tax / 93,

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