Getting started with AWS Networking with Daren Fulwell and Joel Desaulniers – ZNDP 086

ZNDP 086: Getting Started with AWS Networking with Daren Fulwell and Joel Desaulniers

Zig Zsiga: [0:00] Getting started with AWS networking with Darren fulwell and Joel Dasani a episode 86.

How can you get started with AWS networking right now today and more importantly why should you what's the

business benefit what's the business impact all right find all of this out and much more in this episode

welcome back my friends nerds geeks and ziglets out there

we have another episode of the zigbits network design podcast where zigabytes are faster than those gigabytes we strive to provide real-world context around technology hey what's,

everybody I hope everyone is doing great zsiga here welcome to episode 86 of the zigbits network design podcast

once again my name is zsiga I am here to help you with network engineering Network design and know.

Good texture and today you are going to learn how to get started with

AWS networking and why you should get started with it and to help me with that I am joined by two good friends of mine Darren fulwell from IP Fabric and Joel Dasani a from AWS.

[1:12] And yes

that means you have three not one not two but three Cisco certified design experts on the show today we're going to cover this and so much more before we jump in.

I want to let you know that I have opened up,

my network design course yes it's a thing it's happened it's open it's titled designing Network architectures and ensuring,

business success yes now the purpose of this course is to make you the best and network designer you can be its targeted

everyone in this amazing networking industry no matter if you're just starting out of college or high school or if you're a 30-year veteran network engineer it's going to help you become the best network designer you can be this course is going to change your career

and your life

hey if you're interested and want to hear more go to zigbits dot text / you DNA and until April 30th this month 2021 use the discount code.

Network designer one word all caps to save 10% at check,

hey if you have any questions you can reach out to me on Discord or email me directly at Zig at zigbits Tech hey everyone so this week was Cisco live

20:21 all I would love to hear your feedback your general comments about Cisco live this year.

[2:30] It was a couple days and here we are at Friday now this week and I just want to know what your feedback was the pros the cons the positives and negatives what did you enjoy what did you miss what did you want to see more of what did you

like the best at sea

Clive this year please let me know if you want to go ahead and hit me up on Twitter LinkedIn Twitter is at zigbits or at zsiga underscore zsiga LinkedIn you can go ahead and find me there.

[2:57] You can always email me at Zig at cigarettes

Tech as well but I would love to hear your feedback again what did you like about the Cisco live this year what did you miss from Cisco live this year want to kind of do this after action report on Cisco live love to your feedback please do

let me know your thoughts alright enough of meal yapping away here hey guys thank you so much for joining today I really appreciate it hey Darren how are you doing buddy it's been a while how are you doing.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [3:24] Yeah it's too long as always it too long,

fantastic day today it's glorious Sunshine outside spring is finally here and it feels like I don't know it just feels like with there's a light at the end of the tunnel right and we're getting there it,

we getting that's the important thing so yes for super positive.

Zig Zsiga: [3:45] Like a marathon right it's been this long almost like a triathlon or whatever I don't know.

So it's it's been a slog are but you're doing well it's sunny it's sunny here as well so it's actually nice outside a little cold little windy but not too bad it's been raining the last three days so it's nice to have no rain today glad to have you Darren is always Joel Howard.

How are you doing buddy.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [4:05] I'm doing well they got thanks for having me it's been far too long I think it's I think it's been a couple of years since we work together on the CCD study group

things are good here as well so as you know I mean Ottowa up in Canada and today is warm as well so the snow actually finally all melted here just just a few days ago so it looks like we're getting an early spring as well so I'm pretty happy about that.

Zig Zsiga: [4:28] That's awesome that's awesome so supposedly my wife and I are looking at the news yesterday suppose they were supposed to have more snow on Thursday this week and I'm like what.

Well here we have this nice weather it's nice outside I want to go sit on the porch and do work or whatever right and know we're going to have snow in a couple days and then it's going to melt it's gonna get weird of a mud pit again so that's just how our life is so.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [4:47] The joys of spring.

Zig Zsiga: [4:49] Yeah exactly joys of spring right what rain one day snow the next day and then Sunny the next day right but yeah thank you guys both for joining today I really appreciate it been excited about this show and so real quick just going to.

Pitch this as everyone that lists is listening you know this is all about AWS a bws networking if I.

AWS networking and it's getting started how do we get started.

AWS AWS networking and why do we need to write that's really what we're going to talk about today and Darren and Joel are going to help me keep me honest we're going to hit the ground running everyone so my first question to both of you.

Why cloud.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [5:28] But that that question oh how many times do you get asked that Joel you must get asked that all the time why cloud.

You know what you know what my answer is going to be Zig it depends.

Zig Zsiga: [5:41] Of course.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [5:42] I'm sorry fuck but it depends because because right so.

I've worked for a for a consultancy for a good few years and one of the things that we used to do a lot of was looking at Cloud migration.

And the and the reasons were was straightforward I suppose it was very much like looking at a any sort of Outsourcing deal from the from the the late 90s early 2000s when everyone was doing Outsourcing right it was about cost,

cost was the driver.

I think a few years in we kind of know that that's not the reason why you're doing this right and I'm sure Joel has a whole load better reasons than that to to explain to us why people are taking that leap.

[6:36] Exactly how what I would say is so there's and you're absolutely right it depends right and there are there are different use cases of reasons why customers choose to deploy their workloads in the cloud

some of them are related to costs or by moving away from running and maintaining data centers,

some data center providers are you know coming with these increasing costs based on labor rates going up and the cost of,

power and cooling Etc but customers can you know realize cost savings benefits by going to the cloud you're also able to trade.

[7:08] Capital expenses for variable expenses so instead of having to come up with these multimillion-dollar

upfront cost to build this data center infrastructure as you consume from the cloud it's using a pay-as-you-go model so it kind of turns

that capital expenditure into into an ongoing variable with spend space on consumption but actually Darren and zsiga the biggest reason why we see customers,

choosing to move to the cloud is for the ability to increase Speed and Agility so think about a start-up that's looking at you know testing an idea or experimenting with something.

Instead of having to make a which could be a costly.

I'm commitment to experiment with with with a start-up with an application it could be a mobile web app they're able to deploy it to the cloud quickly consumed the services and if that idea doesn't pan out they could simply turn the services off and they're not they're not built,

for you know which could be an experiment that failed so.

Again a lot of different reasons but the ability to experiment and be quick and agile is the biggest benefit of cloud I believe.

Zig Zsiga: [8:13] So so go ahead there.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [8:15] I guess sorry I was just going to say I mean that ties back to how.

I guess a lot of organizations first experience Cloud right was was developers using back that cloud resource that they could get hold of quickly.

You know they could pay for with their credit card and they could just spin stuff up do stuff tear it down and move on which kind of ended up,

with the whole Shadow I tasted our own older and you know and I know but it did right there was a time before organizations really grasp that cloud has its benefits.

[8:50] It was a it was a dirty word right because people were using it in that way and and.

You know what able to control the the expenditure I suppose because there were lots of little pockets of it popping up in organizations I think

things have moved on and a lot of the right I think I think you're absolutely right that people have grasped the the flexibility

it has been has been really the most important thing now it's right it's consumption isn't it it's basically looking at IIT as and and looking at the consumption model and not thinking.

Not thinking I've got to buy this stuff in order to make this thing happen

but I want to consume this thing this is the process I do it's all automated it's all easy to incorporate into my process so I just rock up and I do it and and then accept.

How that charging Works means that I'm not going to buy loads of stuff and operate it to make it happen as exactly right.

Zig Zsiga: [9:49] I was going to add like it was sobbing I just want to make it clear that we don't have to buy Hardware anymore right that's the the big

and for Network Engineers like historical Legacy Network Engineers where you know you have your development team or your software team or whoever it is

in your company coming to you and saying hey we need to build out a new service hey we're a software as a service company we need to build a new service and you come back and say well it takes about nine months to get approval for new hardware

and then get it up install you get it up and running maybe we could streamline that the three months.

We're Cloud not being vendor agnostic Cloud agnostic right Cloud lets you just do it right you just why I don't know you had to give them your credit card probably you have to create an account and then you can just deploy things and test it and then stop.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [10:33] That's exactly it yeah and in some cases like cloud service providers offer a free tier so you can get started an experiment you could do some labs

and actually not be charged for it as long as you stay within those three tier confines and you launch you know resources that are that are available in that class I'll tell you a funny story Zig actually like talking about you know requiring physical Hardware

and some of the summer.

How that's changed with cloud computing and how everything is virtual and you could consume it as you wish when I when I was about 23 years old I was studying for my ccie,

routing and switching and this was back back in the days when networking wasn't as virtualized.

And I spent like almost all of the money that I had in my bank account at the time on routers and switches and I built like a lab because I was starting for the lab exam.

And it cost me thousands of dollars I prepared all of this equipment I bought it on eBay and the end times have changed because now if you're looking at.

I'm learning you know it and it and doesn't just have to be networking if you're learning about you know you want to experience with software engineering or analytics or machine learning.

Because of cloud computing you can do exactly that you have access to these you create an account with a credit card you have access to the service then you can start to experiment and learn what they're having to go in by

all this networking equipment like you know we used to do in the old days when we were studying for these CISCO exams so times have changed I think for the better.

Zig Zsiga: [11:59] Yeah I remember buying like racks and racks of equipment years and years ago for the ccie lab and I remember my wife yelling at me with all the.

Consumption and cables everywhere and and then I went to gns3

and I only had switches like I got all my routers into gns3 back in the day I mean this was years ago I don't even know I think everyone's usually like CML now and EV NG and I'm you know if you need

physical lab anymore.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [12:22] But where exactly where are they running it they're running it in the cloud and.

Zig Zsiga: [12:27] Running in the cloud right.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [12:28] Because of the resource requirements you're not going to run it on a machine well I suppose some people do but

why run it in a machine in your garage when you can when you can run it in the cloud and that that's exactly what we're saying here isn't it it's about the availability of resource to scale up when you need it to trash it when you don't need it

only pay for what you're using at a given point in time so it makes sense to me.

Zig Zsiga: [12:53] It's a really cool business model honestly like it really is if your these were business folks right we have this and just for the record for everyone else in the call I didn't mention at the beginning on the call ha ha ha the podcast um,

all three of us are ççde so we're all certified design experts Cisco certified design experts and for us like

we always want to know why why are we doing this why is this a benefit what are what are our customers getting out of it what is the business getting out of it what is that meeting right and I - that's my soapbox so.

This is the same case here.

What are we getting with all this and it's clear right flexibility and we can reduce cost we can increase our time to Market a new things so we can make more money potentially right we could increase our time of Market on building something new.

Getting it deployed tested developed and then launching it to the consumers and making more money Darren you want to say something.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [13:50] I was just going to say and and scale right because the other thing that we've not with not touched on is not just scale in terms of numbers of transactions or whatever but in terms of location

what if I want to deploy a service that we're going to use in this in the US okay I'm in I'm in little old blighty you know over here this side of the pond you know

there's a bit of latency and those undersea cables right why would I want to

not deploy an instance in the US will rather than go higher you know build a data center out there and all the rest of it I just fire it open in a you know an availability Zone in it in a region that's closer to you guys right and

that capability along with all of the other services that you can you can localize as well you know you're onto a winner.

But you've got to build things properly and this is this is the downside I think that it's alright it's brilliant in fact to have all this available.

[14:48] If you don't deploy properly a is going to cost you a fortune and be you're not going to get the benefits that you expect is that fair job.

[14:57] Exactly I would totally agree and we talked about deploying something properly so one of one of the technology domains that I would say is adjacent to cloud computing is devops so.

[15:08] And they kind of go hand-in-hand

and devops again is kind of blending into networking with with net devops so when you're looking at

deploying something in a traditional data center on a campus Network traditionally that's been blocked by box and there was some manual configuration

prone to human error your paging Network engineers in the middle of the night and that's how it's been for four years and years and years and that's how it was you know

before I started working in the cloud that's how my career was with cloud computing,

Network Engineers are encouraged to learn a little bit about a you don't have to become a software engineer but learning about Network programmability and automation

and understanding how you can write code and if this could be in python or Java you write that code so that if it's properly written it's not it's not prone to

a lot of human error if it's tested you could use that that code base to deploy your network in one region and then you could repeat that to deploy it into another region so talking about

deploying something properly we want to encourage you,

new software use Version Control and use a pipeline to make those changes into the cloud so that if you're if you're looking at making changes or additional deployments and you're looking at scaling out

and you're leveraging that code base that has been tested and you're essentially eliminating human errors so things are will be done properly.

[16:35] Absolutely and I guess the other part of that is understanding the services that are going to be deployed on that as well right because because if you build the services in the right way,

there are certain little tricks that are over time we've had to do as Network engineers in order to get things working

we just don't have to do anymore because we've got the opportunity to teach people to build applications properly means that yeah right so.

No more no more layer to DC are you know no more.

Zig Zsiga: [17:06] I love spanning vlans I love spanning vlans between data.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [17:10] But all of those things all of those things but I'm this is what I'm getting at you'll because if you deploy apps in a in a cloudy way.

What you're doing is you're no balancing using DNS you're doing all of the things that make a network Engineers life.

Well just that little bit easier right in terms of actually deploying the stuff but you have to understand it and I think this is another thing that you would just mention there to do.

The network engineer has to take a wider View and understand that way or of the infrastructure that sits outside.

Outside the circuits outside the the wires and the cables and the switching you've got to know more look wider understand how epic a Shinto work better.

Sorry I'm that's that's my soapbox right.

Zig Zsiga: [17:54] You got to be an Enterprise architect you got to be an Enterprise like you got to and not to be like that corny that it's like a buzzword right I feel like it's a buzzword so but you truly have to see the full picture,

and understand how everything plays together and then and then adapted and.

Ensure that it is going to meet the needs of the business a couple things you've both said and I want to I want to call out a couple things right so.

Isn't it amazing that we come back to this thought that we have to make programs and software properly.

[18:27] I feel like that that is I personally and I'm on another soap box right but I feel like we as Network Engineers if we go back 20 years ago we were doing things

that we shouldn't have done on the network side because the applications were not built properly like that is an underlying like like why are we spending Laird to why are we doing sdp spanning tree between two different data centers like oh because the application doesn't support layer 3 like well that's a.

Right that's a problem it brings back an idea in my head and I'm a computer programmer by trade so so everyone knows this I think but I'm a my degrees in computer science so when I see someone put hard-coding hard-coded IP addresses.

And hard-coded host names or whatever in their code I'm like I'm cringing inside but this is the same concept right we have to span layer 2.

In Cloud we don't have to worry about those things right but we do have to worry about the application being built correctly to facilitate the cloud aspect I think to be able to work in these different regions go ahead there and you want to say.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [19:27] No I was I was just going to say I mean

you do and you don't write because because you know there are mechanisms that make life easier to take what we've got in an on-premise DC's and move them into the cloud environments

um I think I think the the problem was always for me it was it was when we looked at resilience and understand what we mean when we say how do we make a data center resilient right because

the network was always about making sure that whatever connectivity you've got

in a good sort of normal active scenario that you have in a failure scenario right and.

[20:07] There was always an assumption there that whatever servers you had or whatever applications you had would have access to exactly the same resource when you're in a failure scenario is when you are active so.

And that includes IP addressing and routing and all of those good things which is why we had to jump through the Hoops in order to,

to fix the problems from the higher level because the higher level always assumed that those Services would be available and didn't know any better and to be fair

that's as much your fault as anyone elses you know it's an education think whatever it is okay is it is it is exactly what it is and there's no way you're going to get around that

the point here is that in order and I think cloud cloud has been an opportunity.

Because what it's shown is that if things are done in a different way that you've got a whole load of extra capability.

Extra facilities that you just wouldn't have had otherwise so I mean I look at and I'm just going through the process of studying for the,

Advanced networking specialty right which I failed miserably last year and I'm hoping not to mention that but I've just gone drop myself in it.

Zig Zsiga: [21:19] Man it's on it's on record right like it's done.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [21:22] Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [21:22] To be in the show notes to Darren.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [21:24] But but the point is that when you look at that you're not just talking about.

You know I piece updates and you're not just talking about routing and gateways and whatever and circuits and direct connect and whatever you're talking about.

And yet you know s.

If you see the ends right you're talking about DNS Route 53 you're talking about these sorts of aspects

which are much more application Focus but all of a sudden they change what the requirements are of the connectivity and so this is what government doubling back.

Understanding that bigger picture helps us as Network Engineers but it also helps the people deploying the applications because they you're able to help them and educate them.

What the networking requirements are and I think.

[22:14] That was the bit that was missing I in a way back in the day we weren't in a position to educate people of just how how difficult it was.

Or how big a problem it was in order to jump through those Hoops to give them the connectivity they needed and then it was too late,

you know then it was it was too late and we were having to deal with spanning tree

but also but also you take it on even now you know an on-prem DC infrastructure where you're running vxlan between between

you know two Fabrics in two different locations but then still having to root it out into the network or those sorts of things are still problems

and we still haven't got great solutions for them

even now you know we can we can manipulate bgp or we like we can we can change stuff but ultimately.

You've still got the problem of if I route stuff here.

[23:08] Do I reach the back the same way or do I route it over there and what does that symmetry look like and what happens if I put Security on top of its own and so on and so on well hey,

why not take all of that out.

And use the proper constructs in the proper way of deploying an application in order to call it proper different but but but,

takes away those problems and that's what clamp is the opportunity for I think sorry that was a long-winded,

Daren what one of the things that really interests me and this this is something that is available in the cloud are serverless design patterns so for example,

with with traditional application architectures that exists out there there's a dependency on the network you have to have.

[23:53] Subnets with cider blocks and you know network access control list you have to have permissions for that inbound and outbound you know TCP,

HTTP access so there's there's a big dependency on having that Network properly configured and implemented accordingly it has to be,

modified with serverless think things change completely so you could you could you could launch an application,

in the cloud that does not have any requirements to configure IP addresses so.

The scale and the availability the security of those underlying Services becomes the cloud service providers responsibility.

And and securing that application uses completely different services so making calls between,

the various cloud services is done by locking down the apis and authenticating those API calls

you could use like a web application firewall to secure your front end versus running like a traditional commercial

grade firewall software on a virtual Appliance so so things really change and it gives

against Builders the opportunity to experiment with the completely different design pattern and there's still a lot of complexity and there's networking and I'm sure there's there's spanning tree and there's vlans under the hood but all of it is masked

and you kind of move up the stack and it's masked by the cloud services provider yeah yeah that that abstraction.

Zig Zsiga: [25:16] I think there's like what you just said abstraction right I think they're you're able to decouple for customers that are cloud cloud customers.

Don't have to handle any of that other stuff anymore right in every aspect that I don't have to buy it they don't the maintain it

they don't have to manage it and Patch it and you know it's so much time consuming a work to do o&m work operations and maintenance alone,

let's take a step back you have to design it you got a good implement the design and then you got to maintain it when there's a problem going to fix it all that.

And I think we don't highlight this enough all that is being done by the cloud provider right so.

That person can now focus on business initiatives look just think of that right we can focus on whatever business initiative needs to get done right now versus overhead you want to say something daring you always do.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [26:07] Yeah I was going to say I mean to a point because because and this is this is where the problem comes in my head is that.

When we were doing this when I was working in this consultancy and we would dealing with with customers connecting to to whichever cloud service AWS is your Google whoever.

But because they didn't because they do what you just said they believe that completely but like I don't I don't need to care about about how I connect to the cloud because I just do this stuff up here and I can just get to it.

And then and then you start to think well actually what about how you how you maintain this stuff up there and how you structure it and what you build it from and how

there's a front end and a back end and sometimes you want to build a service that's internet facing but what happens if you want private connectivity to it in order to manage it and maintain it so.

Where the complexities gone from dealing with the switches and the trunk links and the vlans and the and the IP routing at the underlay.

You still got to worry about what's overlaid over the top the summit as a different is a different thing to worry about and I think this was this is the big most striking for element for me was that.

[27:23] I came into some of those scenarios where.

Let's say a customer a didn't want to deploy an app into into AWS and they and the cloud and infrastructure.

Guy who might have become a cloud infrastructure guy had gone ahead and built him a VPC and he put some subnets in and thrown some gateways in and all the rest and then all of a sudden gone.

This doesn't rotate the way I expected it or something's not working or my security groups of whatever and and it's then I'll help network guy.

Network Iraq something goes what the flipping heck is this what what.

What what what this makes no sense and and and there's the Gap there's the thing that's why we're having this conversation right now right because this is the bit The Gap that we need to fill.

Zig Zsiga: [28:15] Well I think you still need to know that what's happening I think you still need to know how to troubleshoot right like you still need to because you're the one I mean,

think of it your role is not changing you're still a network engineer and when your on-prem you're still the point of contact when something fails right they assume it's the network everyone assumes it's the network unless you can prove it's not.

Right it's always the.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [28:34] Unless it's DNS.

Zig Zsiga: [28:34] Yeah unless it's DNS or time ntp is might be time I don't know it might be ntp.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [28:43] Wait wait what i'v seen Zig is like working with customers I've seen sort of two different approaches

some customers that are smaller startups that are that are just starting to launch like it could be a new web app at their building and this is this is a small organization there's only a few employees

don't have like a full stack engineer and again I hate to use these These are these coin terms but

quite a full stack engineer really looks like the whole Spectrum so they have some some web development some back-end development Emmanuel python.

But they're also able to deploy the network in the cloud and it could just be because,

and I've seen some full-stack Engineers that I've only been in 80 for a few years they haven't worked in the traditional networking so they haven't lived you know some of the

some of the things and they haven't seen some of the chaos that we've seen in the past by but they understand how to make API calls the deploy of EPC and how to get everything connected together and you know they're writing their,

they're describing their Network in a Json document to launch that with terraformer confirmation so that I do see these organizations that kind of take that approach and they have like a jack-of-all-trades whose full stack,

and he or she is kind of doing it all other large Enterprise organizations will still have a whole team of network engineers and even specialized

I'm Cloud up Network Engineers because in the cloud a lot of the a lot of the complexity is abstracted and mask by the cloud services provider.

We still have things like active-active routing.

[30:13] How do I connect my cloud to my on-prem data centers how do I route between regions multicast is present jumbo frames

high performance Computing and you know getting like 100 plus gigabits per second between node cluster so networking is still is still alive and very well I would say and network engineering.

Is becoming like some of it some of that complexity is being abstracted,

but the field is still very complex for sure I agree I agree in some ways as well as one of the things we found was that that actually

a traditional bringing some of the traditional networking ideas

it's a cloud as a break stuff as well because it because things function so differently potentially in that abstraction layer you don't necessarily want to put.

Firewall in a particular place and push all your traffic through it because you don't have to you know there are alternative ways of doing things and I think it's it's really important probably the most important thing when you get involved with a cloud networking

face is having an open mind about what it have bring your experience bring all that stuff with you.

Have an open mind when you get there because things are different and things need to be different and there's an optimist so many opportunities to do some really really cool stuff with that as well.

Zig Zsiga: [31:35] That is interesting okay so I didn't I didn't realize that I want to make sure we talk about a couple things there so you still need to be a network engineer.

That's a that's an assumption that you still need to design is that an accurate statement to like it

it's not like you don't design anymore so you still need to be a network engineer and you still need to design which I think maybe I'm wrong and you guys can tell me if I am I feel like those are.

Myths that like hey I'm moving to Cloud why don't need any network Engineers anymore we're going to Cloud

like it's it's we don't need we don't need to be designing here it's it's going to magically work in the cloud right I don't I think that's a myth that we can debunk here that that you do need to be

you still need to be having network Engineers you need a networking team but you need those those those people those skill sets that have the networking understanding but also has the cloud understanding too.

And how.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [32:27] That's.

Yeah I know sorry sorry take the jump in but you know you're absolutely right like some of the the Timeless Network Concepts that you'll learn by

like taking like for example in this in the C CDE certification going through that that was extremely beneficial for me not just to learn about the technology side of it,

but there are some Timeless Concepts to it that,

you know the it pendulum kind of swings back and forth from centralized and distributed and cloud and I'm confident that at the end of my career those little ççde Timeless and these are business or

some of them are skills that better just applicable whether whether you were working with mainframes you know a long time ago or or new technologies like cloud computing.

High performance Computing so definitely design and architecture is something that I think is a skill that will never go away for sure.

[33:24] Yeah great completely I mean there's if and if and if nothing else you know broader that than ever it's as much around.

Operational process and all of that sort of good stuff I mean that's the beauty of the de process for me was to come out of it and realize that this isn't just about

putting a network topology together that looks nice and shiny and clever and whatever but being able to operate it right being able to.

Actually put it into a business scenario it delivered the business requirement of being able to provide service but also is able to be maintained

there's no point in putting a nice shiny new network of a vendor that no one's ever heard of before because you can't get the support or you can't get the people of a skilled in it it's that sort of situation and I think,

you know to some extent I think cloud suffered a little bit from that initially because I think people were thinking oh yeah we'll do this stuff and then couldn't support it and or didn't have the knowledge and the understanding things have changed a lot.

Certification wise we're way ahead now of where we were even a few years back.

Zig Zsiga: [34:32] And I want to get into certifications in a minute right but I own a want to harp on something that give an example down to what you said right so when when Cloud first came out I would working at a Sasquatch

company a software-as-a-service company,

and the development team came out and say oh we're moving the cloud we're doing it we're moving it and there was an executive that said yep we're going to do everything in a month needs to be in cloud and so we had this mad - right and we have applications we have staging development

production applications and we had to move everything to the cloud and then that first month came that first like Bill that first month came and they were like what.

[35:09] We didn't save any money.

We have a double the bill that we usually spend and it was like this huge ice like almost like you know the deer in the headlights look like oh man we made a bad choice so there you know.

I think I think there's implications here like we have to make sure we're doing things for the right reasons.

That that you know we are the three of us are designers right we're going to design things for the right reasons

but when you get someone that's like hey I can see we can say what ton of money it would just throw everything on cloud also we don't need to worry about that Network team doing stuff anymore we can just do it ourselves and you know it's that shadow it

Shadow Cloud Shadow automation whatever where do you want to throw out there right and they have these pockets of cloud instances and they're not governed but together there's no.

SSO single sign-on there's no financial reporting system on how much it's being spent and who's spending how much,

and those are like Lessons Learned 15 years ago those are like lessons don't learn 15 years ago I might be dating that a little bit I might be off on the timeframe but now we know that stuff that's where I'm like we know.

[36:16] We might have to do things a little different we just can't throw everything in the cloud and have it all on all the time and not be utilizing it right it's based on what Joel said it's a commission consumption model right like if we don't need a service it doesn't need to be on.

Right like that's the first thing there's some lessons learned there and I'll stop for a minute and let you guys poke holes in what I just said.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [36:37] Yeah I know what I would say is egg is like the cloud also offers the ability to focusing on on some of the tenants of the ççde is again like what I learned from from going through and studying and taking the exam.

Was not not not always the focus on like the the end of technical solution or are always leading with like having a you know a long technical background that was always my comfort zone but Focus

moving up moving up in the stock focusing on the business focusing on the mission statement so for example an organization that's that's approaching it,

maybe there's the opportunity to move what we call some of that undifferentiated heavy lifting or where they're spending a lot of time and effort doing something that doesn't necessarily aligned to their mission statements will think of like a retail organization or a bank or a government entity.

Are they in the business of running and maintaining data centers run and running and maintaining networks maybe not they still have to do it but when you when you go into the cloud what you can do is and in your case.

You know a SAS provider and this happens a lot where customers want to move to the cloud and they set these these really aggressive objectives it could be 30 days or 50 days.

But what often happens is they'll take a migration approach where they'll just lift and shift everything don't get into the cloud quickly.

[37:48] That can be done to evacuate a data center quickly but where you get the biggest benefit is where you're able to refactor and you don't have to be factored right away.

The refactoring you start to consume some of the managed cloud service provider services and in networking there are things like the elastic load balancer there's the the transit Gateway.

AWS came out with the AWS Network firewall a few months ago,

so these are managed services that again you're pushing the responsibility of the maintenance and the operation the scaling the availability.

Of that particular service you do have options of running commercial Network appliances in the cloud as well that that's always going to be there.

Fight but as an organization you should kind of step back and think like is this is this our mission statement is in her is it in our best interest to spend effort doing this

where we can kind of push that to the cloud service provider we abstract that complexity away and we can focus on other things and network Engineers will still have a role to play.

But maybe they're doing something more related to architecture and design and working with the application teams versus worrying about layer 2 and layer 3 protocols right.

Zig Zsiga: [38:56] So that's a great point you make right and I know Darren wants to chime in too so.

I'll be I'll be quick that's a great point you make right I learned a lesson I me as a network engineer right I think I was a senior network engineer at the time I learned a lesson right like we threw everything in the cloud.

We were under the impression that it was going to solve all the problems at the time but we didn't handle it the right way right we headed.

Rapid time frame and we're trying to make that business leader happy right and,

but we didn't understand what we didn't know our likes to say we didn't know what we didn't know right and,

now what you say makes perfect sense show like we should have refactored the applications we should have refactor things we should have removed redundant capabilities we don't need the same application and 20 different places like there's a whole bunch of things that we could have done.

To make it more effective more efficient and also saved a ton of money and so I guess the lesson there,

they I'm telling everyone is that I did things wrong right as a network engineer don't do that right refactor the applications like and and use the service is going there.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [39:59] I was going to say it's more about about knowing your options right and I think this is this was the problem

because to some extent it was an education thing right at that no one understood or appreciated that that actually to carry this migration Out means that.

[40:15] Certainly if you go if like Joel says you do a lift and shift there are mechanisms that make that work and happen and there are you know you can you can run your virtualization that you run in your own Data Center

in the cloud if you want to,

but that's not going to get you the best and most efficient use of the cloud resource because because of the requirements of that virtualization right so it comes back,

it comes all the way back to to DC's and our stretched vlans that we were there for vmotion right.

The no one ever used because it didn't work properly but that was why it was there and so we had to put that in place with this is why those don't you know it's this is a similar,

similar issue but the fact is that that when we get to that the cloud we have a we still have a journey because you still got mechanisms and available to you to fix those problems finally.

Fix those application problems and that's the beauty of the cloud to a great extent in that those mechanisms are there and available to you,

but but you've got to know they're there and you've got to understand the implications of using them and I think that that education piece.

[41:29] From a network perspective you know people are catching up and understanding that that's got to be done so

you know people need to know more I'm a big believer now in every time I speak to you in network engineers in getting them to to understand devops as we've already mentioned Joel you're spot-on with that because you know if people understand.

The need for devops and the the process is and why they're doing that then it gives them the opportunity to understand the bigger impact of what those things do.

But it also.

You know the cloud connectivity piece is Sookie now and but and I'm not just talking about how to get to the Cloud because that's important right we need to understand how you because no one's ever going to,

not have.

Any on-prem networking there's always going to be a requirement of some sort to have that so there's that piece to understand and that's your your direct connects and your Transit gateways and and all of that sort of good stuff.

[42:29] But also the other aspects is the

State the networking in the cloud and and understanding how availability zones are interrelated and what regions look like and why you put stuff in one region and another and which Services need to be split across and which calm,

those sorts of things are absolutely key and there's loads and loads now of really good resource to educate people on that and I think.

If a cloud of a network engineer isn't you know looking at those fundamentals of cloud networking now.

Then they really should be you know because because they need to understand both in cloud and and the connection back to on-prem.

[43:10] That's exactly it yeah and for my from my perspective like my background was traditional network engineering working with data centers campus network service provider Networks

and I made a choice about four years ago to say about yeah actually about three and a half years ago to start to educate myself and learn a little bit more about cloud computing and,

a lot like if you have a traditional Network backgrounds,

you'll find that these Concepts you'll pick them up very quickly like because a lot of it is routing like like IP routing hasn't changed,

static routing and using bgp you don't you don't have to be like a bgp specialist but

those Technologies are still applicable in the cloud and Concepts like multicast and IPv6 are still there as well one thing I wanted to bring up is

connecting data centers to the cloud you're absolutely right that hybrid network will be in place for organization some organizations will work like that forever

some customers that are kind of choosing to go into the cloud and go all in with the cloud service provider have an end goal to have ultimately Evacuate the data center and close it down.

But what happens is it's important to understand that going to the cloud isn't like once you're there your journey isn't over.

Because what I have I haven't talked about this but in with cloud computing.

[44:26] A cloud service provider will launch new services and features on a daily basis like they're continually continuously I'm doing research and development and customers that are consuming those Services benefit from it right away so if you think of.

Like a network Appliance let's say that there's a new version or a new feature that's available you have to perform,

an upgrade of that Appliance and that's up to you as the network administrator to do it when you're consuming a service that's managed by a cloud service provider,

and you new capability and this could let's say for example it's IPv6 or multicast or jumbo frame support you get to benefit from that new capability automatically so

again once you're in the cloud there's still a lot of work to do to kind of keep up with these new functionalities in the faster networks in the new.

The new features that are made available in those Network Services.

Zig Zsiga: [45:15] So you can't set it again set it and forget it then you really got to keep kind of doing it right go ahead Darren you want.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [45:21] There's yeah there's another aspect to that as well because things can be deprecated just as quickly as they started right so you might be using a service.

And a new service comes along that supersedes that you've got

you've got to look at that to move on because at some stage that that previous service might get deprecated and that can happen I mean it doesn't happen as quickly but it could in theory you know be the because of the development cycle because essentially

these folks are using the very same mechanisms and the very same methods that we've talked about you know agile and lean as devops type scenarios.

You have to consider that you have to move with the with the cloud provider and I think that that's a really good really good point actually Joe after yeah I've sort of not really considered that.

Yeah you've got to.

You got to make the difference I suppose I'll make the changes to your own operational capability to go with it because you've you have to fit that same consumption model that you're presented with.

Exactly yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [46:28] So that that's that's has been great guys so a couple things right we talked about the business reasons we talked about why right which I think is imperative like we can't have a conversation about anything

without why so why does it business needed what's the impact if they do if they don't do it that kind of stuff we talked about some of the use cases right we talked about new Services even though we didn't call it out

we talked about a company wanting to test something out Dev you know have an idea right I wake up in the morning at one I have an idea let me go

we don't get my AWS account and test it out go do some coding

we talked about moving your apps to the cloud right and what you should do what you shouldn't do kind of thing right you should just move everything over there and not do anything you should probably refactor it tweak it use some of those micro services or.

Those managed Services items that Joel was mentioning we talked about the connectivity options to Cloud right so we really kind of talked about a lot of things here we talked about the connectivity options to cloud and we talked about.

Thread connects and routing and multiple active active connections and how at a high level,

how it would function ER that it's an option there something that I want to just talk about a little bit guys it's okay where'd should actually people start.

Right like we talked about a lot right and we talked about having a network background and devops and all these things right so where should people start.

What do you guys think.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [47:50] I'll let you go first Joe.

Yeah so what I would recommend and I'll just kind of talk about my own path and that I took to become more fluent with cloud computing

you don't you don't have to start as a network engineer so if your background is traditional networking it helps to have.

A grasp of the of the basic concepts so if you have a CCNA or even doing something like Network+ just understand like the basics IP subnetting

switching

maybe you know a little bit about network security but again got back to what I was saying earlier I've seen some some college and university graduates that have a Computer Sciences degree.

[48:30] And that have a software engineering background and that becomes full stack engineers and can can deploy well architected networks in the cloud so you don't you don't have to be a network expert.

So there's kind of like two approaches if you have a if you have a non networking traditional software background.

Leverage that and start to experiment with Cloud networking if you're coming from a network background those skills will be extremely valuable and you could you could do training,

there are videos or there's actually an AWS Advanced networking book that you could you could you know read the the soft copy or the hard copy,

and you'll find that your nephew and this is this is the approach that I took my networking skills were extremely relevant and I was able to relate that working.

To cloud computing and kind of pick it up really quickly yeah I mean it from for me I.

I had little choice I suppose I was working in a scenario where I was working with folks who would doing that migration week in week out and so and so from a from a network I very quickly realised I've got all this networking

capability.

[49:37] I don't see I did it was just a black hole in my knowledge and so and so for me I started looking at the cloud practitioner exams and started looking at the the fundamentals of in Azure or whatever.

Those those were great for sort of setting the setting the foundation I suppose understanding when someone says cloud computing what do they mean what

services are available how do you approach it so that as a networker coming to it I could start to talk the same language as the full stack developer and the and the cloud

folks who knew what they were they wanted and what they were talking about but I could also translate that into what the networking capability that's its

underneath it probably was and certainly was in terms of getting the connectivity into the on-prem and so.

[50:30] That was that was where I started with it I mean that was very much fundamentals or print first calls and then

start to look at whether you know the specialization that that advanced networking specialty is in for AWS is awesome because it,

the way it lays out all the services out with a that Network Centric View

just changes your understanding completely of what it is you're trying to achieve.

Yes I failed the exam first time but now I'm revising I'm reviewing the material you know it makes a whole lot of sense and I think that that

from a design perspective particularly.

Allows you to bring all of your application knowledge and certainly as a network designer all of those things that you've ever learned you you need them all.

Bring them together with this Advanced knowledge and and there's some you know the possibilities are endless and I think that's really really good it's great great time to be a network engineer.

Zig Zsiga: [51:31] So I think this is great right I was asking the questions because again I want people to understand how they can start into this Cloud world right because that's where we are today we're I mean I don't know any customers aren't using some form of cloud that I deal with.

And that's an idea with the.

The government space and that's you know with a lot of constraints and other requirements and yet they're still using Cloud so I don't know anyone that's really not,

embracing some form of cloud,

you know I like the two different approaches I like how Joel how you could have started out and you suggested someone should have some background in networking maybe CompTIA

plus maybe CCNA of some sort and then you know Joe Darren you're like yeah the cloud certifications themselves right like you can go.

And it's okay if you fail on guys it's okay right it's not a big deal if you fail it's fine so.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [52:21] Thanks Eric.

Zig Zsiga: [52:23] No but on a serious note though it's okay if.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [52:26] You're absolutely right now of course.

Now I was going to mention like when other neat thing that you could do if you're coming from a traditional networking background is and you're interested in learning about Network programmability and you know the automation the cloud is great for that because so for example

if you don't know a lot about things like Version Control and writing python code and pipelines it could be a little bit overwhelming but if you create if you create a an account with the cloud services provider.

Those AP those network service apis or wide open and you can actually run python code

I will interact with them so it's really easy to kind of get started

and write some simple code or write something where you know you could deploy confirmation or terraform infrastructure as code to deploy your Cloud Network so they're sort of learning about the concepts of cloud computing and Cloud networking,

at the same time learning about Network programmability so you so you know there's you can kind of kill many birds with one stone by sort of like kind of dipping your toes in experimenting with the cloud.

[53:32] That's a great idea I mean I mean that's one of the things actually from because I'm Network automation is a big sort of part of why I do these days an API and you know API

Integrations form a huge part of that so to be able to practice that in a networking but also cloudy

why you say three birds with one stone.

Zig Zsiga: [53:57] I love your reference to cloudy to by the way we're going to I'm going to use that when to steal it when it's actually a choir that so one topic left I want to talk about we kind of.

Covered it briefly and I want to talk about designing in the cloud and what specifically are some of our design decisions design options that we have to as designers right because we've already,

space that you're still going to be network engineer but you have to know what's there which the certifications learning and how to get started I'm going to teach you what you don't know right they're going to teach you what you don't know and then now.

Once you do know what's there how what do you need to design right and maybe this is the Joel maybe it's Darren I don't know you guys can choose who wants to answer it first but you know design designing in the cloud what

what are our design decisions.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [54:43] They're joining Google first go on man okay you know me so well it's so just just start talking go for it.

[54:52] Yeah so there's a couple of things and again Network architecture is still relevant it's important when you're looking at cloud computing there's a whole there's a whole bunch of things that you need to take into consideration so one is

you know for hybrid networking how are you planning to connect your data centers or your branch office is to the cloud so we'll software-defined wide area networking or sdn.

[55:14] Is something that integrates very well with the cloud so running these sd1 virtual appliances as VMS or as virtual machines

connecting those to your branch offices that gives you your I would say branch office to Cloud connectivity

you can throw in some if you have data centers in there as well how do you connect your data center so the cloud it could be using ipsec VPN s or something like Direct Connect or express route but you want to you want to take advantage of one of the characteristics of cloud which is

the ability to leverage high-availability so

going going back to traditional on-premise data centers and when I worked in those environments a lot of the times we had single points of failure and these could be Network appliances at an entire data center to me as a single point of failure

so when you're doing something in the cloud leverage that that ha capability and ensure that you're sort of doing it right and you're mitigating.

Any single point of or network device or even data center Aid it could be a cloud region if it happens to fail you know that causes an outage so,

take that into consideration in your design and eliminate the single points of failure because it's pretty straightforward to do so when you're in the cloud.

[56:27] So so my take on this one because I've always got that I.

I sometimes used to introduce single points of failure depending on how applications or Services might fail

so it's almost I mean it's exactly as you described right there's the fact is you've got all this resilience and you've got all this availability but.

[56:49] You may not have actually the five nines or whatever that you were expecting for a particular function,

what you've got to make sure is that that you're delivering the appropriate availability in the

connectivity for the application service because

a lot of the application might be looking after some of this for you right you might have a scenario where you lose an instance because you view your you've hit that that

that one nine that you know to you gone 192 far and you've hit a problem well hey,

you load balancing looks after that because you know you

you instead of balancing across three instances you balance across four and you let one fail

because you land because in the time it takes to fail and fail over in the network

your load balancing is already resolved that and it's off doing its thing so so again it comes back to looking at those those Services how they deployed the amount of time it takes to fail over and understanding the impact on the application.

[57:55] Before you worry about the five nines or the six nines you know or whatever it is you know so I think I think I think this comes from.

Pause.

Almost always over-provisioning availability in the network in data centers in the past I think and that that's that's what it's always felt like that we've almost tried to put too much,

availability in the network and not not being concerned about and it's comes back too

applications being able to handle the fact that the network isn't as available as a Perhaps Perhaps it always wanted to be and that you had situations where.

[58:36] Network network doesn't always fail hard does it doesn't always isn't always hard down if it goes wrong it sometimes you get these little gray failures where things stay up

and and just stop passing traffic or whatever and so the application failover is becomes a lot more.

Brazilian because if an application session fails over a particular link all you do is just drop that application session and and establish another one in a different direction if it's not already been established,

using things like load balancing you Lou using things like DNS.

[59:12] To resolve these issues before even gets to the network and then your your design is completely.

Completely different you've moved all the put the ear that availability to somewhere else and you're using the

the constructs of the application to resolve those issues so so yeah I think it's a combination of two things I think Joey are absolutely right that there's so much more resilience.

So many more so many so far fewer single points of failure in a in those Cloud environments I mean you only have to see some of those.

I was crazy diagrams of Leafs flying super spine architectures that you see sometimes in in the Press.

Um you've got over but your energy and you can just use all that but.

Again take the opportunity where you've refracted your applications to the migrations where you've used those those those those services are that are available to you.

Put that resilience and redundancy in availability into the application.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:18] That's awesome.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:00:19] And just just one other thing if I could just add this into this this seems like a simple thing to network designers but a recommendation that I was at that I would make is whenever you're thinking about deploying into the cloud

do yourself a favor and allocate a larger

beside arranged then what you might anticipate and it's just because of the the scale and the elasticity that organizations benefit from the cloud

the Network's Network Engineers don't always realize that and you know if you could allocate a / a couple of / 16s large slide arranges you may not need all of it,

but you'll thank me down the road when when it's time to when that network does a girl because you'll have you'll have those those IP subnets available so go go bigger than you might think.

Zig Zsiga: [1:01:03] Where were you 15 years ago where were you.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:01:05] I have a suggestion I've a suggestion go IPv6.

Yes exactly when problem solved the thing but I think you're right I mean it's the perfect opportunity isn't.

To go to V6 as well because you've not having to maintain and manage the infrastructure to support it because it's.

Because it's available to you or well to an extent right in the cloud environments anyway.

Zig Zsiga: [1:01:30] So Darren is telling everyone to go IPv6 so if.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:01:33] Next time.

Zig Zsiga: [1:01:34] Can you can ping him and yell at him so.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:01:36] This Time come on we've been messing around with this one for too long.

Zig Zsiga: [1:01:40] Joel to that point I when I first was doing it we allocated a slash twenty four to eight of us

it was used in the first week and it was a joke it was gone the first week and we were like okay and so we allocated II / 24 and it was gone within the first

the first month and I was like yeah so we made a mistake here and then we allocated in / 16.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:02:05] Zig that's the same mistake that people were making when they first deployed the on-prem you know I mean it's natural because you're trying to reserve the resource right.

Then go V6 and you've not got to worry about conserving space you know.

Zig Zsiga: [1:02:20] Know every every ipv4 address can have its own / 64 IPv6 range so.

So yeah I got you I hear you hey guys I appreciate it so real quick any last minute comments I go to jail first any last comments questions concerns thoughts ideas that you want to share with everyone listening today.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:02:40] Yeah I would say like for anyone who's listening who has a background in network engineering again you don't have to become a software engineer or a devops expert overnight but just understanding

if you're if you're looking at learning more about cloud computing understanding the fundamentals of how networks are built in the cloud how

things are abstract for a little a little bit how hybrid networks function

and experiments like open up a Cloud Server and account with the cloud service provider and start to experiment with python,

or with terraforming and see how you're able to like actually build an entire Cloud network using software-defined networking,

by writing a little bit of code and I think experimenting and getting your hands dirty will go a long way and it'll be really beneficial for your career.

Zig Zsiga: [1:03:23] It's awesome Joel all right Darren your turn Buddy any last minute comments concerns questions comments thoughts whatever I repeating myself go ahead.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:03:30] Mines mines easy what what Joel said because because you know

he's the guy who knows you know I mean a lot of mine is just observation through

what I've experienced going through it no the applications that you're delivering know and understand that you know the impact of network on that but otherwise exactly everything that y'all said is is obviously the right answer.

Zig Zsiga: [1:03:53] Awesome awesome alright we're start with Daren this time we're can listeners find you on the interwebs.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:04:00] So I'm on Twitter at there and fulwell or LinkedIn is the usual place where where I hang about but I've got I'm on so many Discord groups and now what's what is this with this chord

you know is everywhere you'll hung all the Disco groups you'll find me hit your.

Zig Zsiga: [1:04:19] Just join them all and you'll find are in one of those Subway like you can join the zigbits Discord server and you can.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:04:25] Prego Prego zigbits this code.

Zig Zsiga: [1:04:27] Just throw it out there this is zigbits Tech / Discord Joel where can people find you on the interwebs they want to keep this AWS conversation going they want to ask you questions they wanted you know figure out stuff from an AWS pamp standpoint where can they reach out to you buddy.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:04:42] The two best ways to reach out to me if you wanted to chat or connect or ask any questions so I have my personal website which is jeweled is only a.com

and you could also find me on LinkedIn so just just search for me and and you know welcome to connect and chat further about this for sure.

Zig Zsiga: [1:04:58] Awesome awesome hey guys you guys are both rockstars I just got to say thank you for your time today this has been a great show I appreciate it and I hope you guys have a great day thanks.

Daren Fulwell And Joel Desaulniers : [1:05:07] Thank you thank you thanks egg great fun as always.

Zig Zsiga: [1:05:11] Hey friends nerds geeks and ziglets that's going to close out today's episode of the zigbits network design podcast where you learned

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