Why do we build networks in network engineering with Jordan Martin – ZNDP 080

ZNDP 080: Why do we build networks in network engineering with Jordan Martin

Zig Zsiga: [0:00] Why do we build networks and network engineering with Jordan Martin episode 80. In this podcast episode we are going to pull back the curtains we are going to answer why do we truly build the networks in network engineering

I'm joined today by my good friend Jordan Martin and he's going to help me provide answers perspectives and understanding to why we even build these networks in the first place,

Zig Zsiga: Hey welcome back my friends nerds geeks and Ziglets out there we have another episode of the Zigbits Network Design Podcast where

Zigabytes are faster than gigabytes we strive to provide real-world context around technology.

Zig Zsiga: [0:42] What's up everybody I hope everyone is doing great Zig Zsiga here and welcome to episode 80 of the Zigbits Network Design podcast once again my name is Zig Zsiga and I'm here to help you with that network engineering, Network Design, and Network Architecture and today we're going to go back to the basics we're going to go back in time we are answering the question why do we even build networks in the first place

I'm super excited about this show I hope you enjoy it

Zig Zsiga: Today's guest Jordan Martin Jordan is a 20-plus year veteran and it infrastructure he has spent the largest portion of his career working in Enterprise it shops, growing from abroad generalist into a focus on network engineering, architecture the last six years of his career or so have been working in the VAR space that's value-added reseller or partner space,

and initially he was doing delivery and now making that transition to a full-time architecture role he is currently a Technical Solutions architect on the global engineering team at worldwide technology

his areas of focus can broadly be summarized as Enterprise networking that includes wired Wireless wide area networks and most recently has been spending quite a bit of time on cloud Network now outside of the day job, Jordan Martin is the host of the network Collective podcast he is coming up on a four years of running the network like the podcast we finally got him on the show today now just quick.

[2:11] Blurb about Network Collective podcast right if you don't know about it I would go go take a listen at some of those episodes that are out there the network collect the podcast is truly an awesome platform Jordan has

several regular released podcast Series going on as well as a weekly live stream that they just added go check out Network Collective

Jordan has some outstanding content truly outstanding content on this platform that honestly all Network Engineers should should Leverage

well enough of me yapping here Jordan my friend thank you for joining me today welcome to the show how are you doing.

Jordan Martin: [2:45] Hey Zig I am I am I'm actually feeling really good I'd put out a tweet just a few minutes ago,

and I Was preparing for this conversation that we're about to have and I realize it's been a very long time since I have sat in the guest chair on a podcast and this is the first time I'm on your podcast which is a shame

it should have happened a long time ago that's on me not on you that's not a complaint but I am really excited to be here things could not be better how are you doing today.

Zig Zsiga: [3:13] Hey thanks for throwing that question back at me I'm doing great man I love doing this stuff so I'm happy to get on the on the podcast and the phone but we're not on the phone you know I'm not our microphones are you know phones away from our phones and record

thing right and have a conversation that I think is important but you know real quick you know I do take some fault and not having you on the show

I do take some fault in that you know I think I overlooked it at times I think we might have talked about it a couple times here and there in the past and it just I think it just slipped my mind and then

I know what it was a couple weeks ago I was like I've never had Jordan on the phone or on the phone while I'm stuck on the phone.

I've never heard Jordan on the podcast that's a problem I gotta I gotta fix that problem so I'm glad we were able to get this scheduled and we can have this conversation you know I think it'll be good.

Jordan Martin: [4:00] I'm happy to be here.

Zig Zsiga: [4:00] Yeah man thanks hey real quick I know you run your own show I want to go ahead and talk a little about that real quick just kind of like everyone know what it is and what you guys cover and how they can go ahead and listen to your show.

Jordan Martin: [4:11] So yeah so I'm coming up on four years here in a month or so of running the network Collective podcast

it is exactly how it sounds I was not subtle in naming it I wanted to make sure that people understood what it was it's all about network engineering and it's all about building a community around Network engineers

and so we talked about the technology we talked about some of the work and career stuff as it relates to like how to navigate a network engineering career

and then on the back end we do some other stuff cool stuff to so for those who support the show we have a slack and it's a really really great community of

Engineers who get together and talk like all day every day both about networking and about other stuff is just people who have you know shared common interests which is really really great

and we just started a live stream that we're doing weekly that's that's been a lot of fun Tony or Tony a Phantosaur Twitter use that show IP interface brief he is he is my co-host and my partner in crime for getting the stuff done and so we have we have a lot of fun doing that.

Zig Zsiga: [5:09] That's awesome so everyone I will have the show I will have the links to all of that stuff now we're Collective Jordans content information and then Tony's contact information so you can go and follow them join the slack

talk about networking stuff talk about whatever you need to with these guys they've built a community I've been in the community for private the four years that you had it.

Jordan Martin: [5:29] Yeah you've been on almost all time.

Zig Zsiga: [5:31] Not that I'm active everyday because I wouldn't get anything done if I was in slack every day so

but I am there and I will occasionally pop in and say hi and whatnot I don't know about you but in every group these days I can't focus on so many different groups are out there so I try to prioritize like an hour

to do it you know so.

Jordan Martin: [5:50] Yeah you really have to you really do have to measure it you have to be careful about how much time you spend

in those things because I mean it's fun right it's enjoyable to have conversations with other people and and again it's not just networking it's often times things that are you know tangential we you know we've been having a lot of fun with all the stock market craziness and talking about that we've been having fun we watched sn9 with

go up and come down and I'll ball the Flames today right till like this is a,

you know there's all kinds of other people that share common interests and so like if you aren't careful about it you can spend all your time there and especially when you run one

you have to be really careful because there's a sense of obligation like I want to be part of it and guiding this community and making sure that it's continuing to be valuable but at the same time like got a day job you know

I got to do that day job I got to do a good job.

Zig Zsiga: [6:37] Job do you got a day job and a side job got the family right it all adds up I feel your pain I run a Discord server for zigbits and I

it's time consuming man like I don't be rude I popped in earlier today and said hey I think I did a message about the giveaway that we did in January and I said who the winner was and I was like okay I'm going back to my cave

bye guys

then I left like I do because I I know if I stick in there for more than 20 minutes or an hour like even if an hour I'm going to be in there all day like honestly and I'm not gonna get anything else done so

no

Jordan Martin: [7:09] With your gent yeah was your January give away the four books I saw that going around.

Zig Zsiga: [7:13] Yes it was the

for Network design book so there's a whole bunch in there and a lady by the name of Diane Lee Anne I don't know her full last name is Diane L sorry Diana L she won she won the for

design books you know so I reached out to her via email and hopefully we'll hear from her soon and get those over to her and she can hopefully start her you know Network design.

Learning because I'm telling you those books are critical right there I mean there's everything that you need to go after Network design and the CCD if you really want to focus on that too.

Jordan Martin: [7:44] I got to play a very small role in one of those books and I learned very quickly that I didn't want to anything to do with writing or doing a book.

Zig Zsiga: [7:52] You don't know what you don't know about book writing man it's crazy there's a lot of stuff you have to do on the giveaway front I hate to plug things but I've learned that you have to.

Right so we have a new giveaway this month oh I don't know if that'll happen this month but hey I'll just say you know if you want to see the latest giveaway go to zigbits dot Tech

/ giveaway and I don't know what March is going to be in 2021 yet if this is February still when this launches it is our depth devops

Dev net focused giveaway it's all about Automation and programmability and we're giving away five books in this giveaway.

Yeah yeah I got to figure out the March giveaway so you have any ideas there Jordan on that let me know I'm given by doing a giveaway every month in 2021.

Jordan Martin: [8:36] I'll think about it we're kind of going through the same thing because we're running some contest on our live stream

and and running the contest on the livestream like we want to have something that's nice to give away but when you do a live stream every week.

That extinct can't can't be that expensive like we got to be careful about what we choose to give away because while we do make a little bit of money doing the podcast it's not a lot right so but we got some cool stuff coming up with you like we got some coffee cups with some fun

Network Collective not just Network Collective but some other stuff like that's coming and I think there's some more stuff in the works and I'm excited about so.

Zig Zsiga: [9:09] No that's awesome and yeah you got to get a give back to the community is right that we build so.

That's what it's all about honestly like there's money on the side of this everyone knows but honestly it's not money for us like and I'm talking for Jordan for a minute here but it's not about money it's about giving back to this community and helping everyone and I think that's what.

Jordan Martin: [9:25] If I did it for money I would have been out a long time ago.

Zig Zsiga: [9:30] She's my wife with a kick me out a long time ago to like you're not making any money with this get out.

Jordan Martin: [9:34] Yeah for sure.

Zig Zsiga: [9:34] So thanks for joining why don't you go into a little beat background on who you are what you think is important about your experience certifications where you work today and then we'll kind of kick it into why do we build networks and network engineering.

Jordan Martin: [9:49] All right we'll start with the least important thing I'm a ccie in that and and I say that least important thing because certification slot experiences,

whatever you know it means something but I'm not quite sure what it means

um so start there so I do have some experience taking tests and going down that road of getting certifications but.

Zig Zsiga: [10:08] Date our lab exam you passed it and you moved on.

Jordan Martin: [10:11] I took it a couple of times like most people yeah yeah so yeah I have a I have a fair amount of experience with that lab but yeah so anyway so beyond that like I've been working in it infrastructure for over 20 years.

Yeah I'm like I sound really old when I say that I probably am really old.

Zig Zsiga: [10:26] Yeah when you hit that 20-year Mark man like it I say it every day and I'm like man 20 years.

Jordan Martin: [10:32] Yeah 20 years like all of a sudden I met old guy that I used to used to say wow he's been doing this for a lot longer than me but the largest portion of that I spent working in Enterprise it shops

different different you know Stripes different types and I went from you know I grew from being abroad generalist into a focus on network engineering so the focus on network engineering and architecture probably the past 10 years

for the past six years or so I've worked in the VAR space I would initially was doing delivery and now I'm doing pure architecture conversations Design Lab that type of stuff

the role that I'm in now I'm a Technical Solutions architect on the global engineering team at worldwide technology,

focusing on things like Enterprise networking but spending a lot of time lately in Cloud networking and some of the overlay tech there which is a lot of fun and we talked about we talked about my other gig rights the other thing I do.

Wishing that were Collective so we won't we won't belabor that at all.

Zig Zsiga: [11:22] Yeah so you do the network you do the podcast of ninety percent of time everything else is like that extra 10% right like you spend most your.

Jordan Martin: [11:28] Yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [11:29] I'm kidding totally kidding.

Jordan Martin: [11:30] I don't think it works out that way now I was starting to do the math on how much time I was doing on network Collective and it's starting to get close to my day job was and I'm like okay 80 hours a week plus is probably not good so I had to scale it back a bit and you got to work smarter and so.

Zig Zsiga: [11:45] Yeah yeah the automate things automation I'm gonna it's a lot of work man so I okay thanks for you know the background is 20 set the kind of lay the land let everyone know,

who you are what you are I mean most people are going to know who you are just being fully transparent.

Jordan Martin: [12:00] I don't assume that.

Zig Zsiga: [12:01] So I'm going to just open up with this question right why do we build networks and network engineering.

Jordan Martin: [12:07] So I mean I think that that's a you know it's a question that I think if you ask 10 people you're going to get 10 different answers

and I also think that it really depends on how far you are abstracted away from what you're looking at I think that when we talk about this like I think it's important to recognize the level of what you're talking because I think there's some confusion as we talked about.

Why networks and what networks are four and you know the way we apply technology to network so let me share just some general thoughts so if I take it from like the upper levels we're talking like an 80 thousand foot view networks are really simple,

um you know networks are there there they enable enhanced communication like like at the end of the day that's what it's all about is about connecting.

People and is about connecting things right so that's the very very broad Broad View right when you come down to 30,000 foot view all of a sudden you start realizing well while that's true.

There's some differentiators my home network is nothing like my business Network right like they're very different.

Zig Zsiga: [13:04] Yes.

Jordan Martin: [13:05] Beasts and then I think about the different business networks that I've worked in and especially once I started Consulting the different business networks that I have gone in and consulted in.

And they all are doing different things because they're all meeting different business objectives now the thing is they're using the same Technologies.

Right but ultimately you need the day they're trying to meet business objectives if if if the teams are disciplined in good that's what they're doing and if they're not that's your room to grow is to get there.

Now as you start getting closer to those specific Networks you start really you know honing in on the unique.

Value that communication brings to that company.

Right that's where you start talking about like what does this actually bring so the further you dive in the closer you get to mapping,

the value of communication and the enhanced communication that a network brings,

to what that business does as part of their objectives on what their goals are and so we build networks depending on how you talk about it either just to connect things or all the way down into two meeting specific business needs.

That surround themselves around communication.

Zig Zsiga: [14:18] I like it I like it you know I like it you know I think I would take a couple of takeaways right so we build networks to connect people to things I think I might be paraphrasing there right people to things and I like it to add that.

The Network's purpose is to get data from point A to point B at the right time and I don't know how else to articulate that right like

there's data and I'm not trying to be like technical there's data you could be zeros and ones it could be bits and bites if you want to talk about that right but you're getting something from point A to point B and it needs to be at that point B location,

so that it can be used at the right time so if it gets there late it's not going to be leveraged right it's not going to be needed or leverage that the right time I'm thinking like like example of something that needs to be that the right time might be.

Like a voice called video that traffic right video may not be that big a deal it's UDP but you get the idea I think it's an example

um something that's critical like real-time data analytics real-time data feeds you need that data there to make real-time decisions if that's not there you're going to make,

the in incorrect decision.

Jordan Martin: [15:23] I always think that if you take it to the extremes you'll see why the value is there or why it's there and so the I always like using the extreme use cases only because they demonstrate it well being late

as a high-frequency Traders a bad bad thing

it could be millions of dollars or billions of dollars which I think is particularly relevant based off the timing of our conversation and all that's been going on in the stock market

but there's like but the idea is you know like for them timing is absolutely everything now you know you may not have such critical demands right

it might just be that the email gets there by the time the meeting starts in which case okay you know it's a completely different set of business requirements that you're that you're designing to but really at the end of the day like that's that's what you trying to figure out.

Zig Zsiga: [16:05] And it got there right the email got there and it's used at the right time right but again back to like the stock market example right I mean if you're five minutes off if that data doesn't get there then it's a five-minute delay and that's a huge effect I mean like you said there's a there's a there's an.

Jordan Martin: [16:19] Five minutes five seconds.

Zig Zsiga: [16:22] Five seconds right I will hi right I would way higher.

Okay so now in those situations like we're talking about the stock market and we're talking about email for like maybe a business that just needs email information constantly the network is,

networks and I have the same Technologies same Solutions under the hood but let's be vendor agnostic I'm talking like you know they might have routing protocols and Layer Two configurations and Etc right.

But the purposes that those networks are there are a little different right there's different reasons the network is there the underlying reason is it's supporting the business

right there it's a what a business Naval that's a buzzword these days business enabler and packing the business I don't know what other business was words I can throw out there but what I'm trying to say is that.

The underlying goal of the network is still the same but the the the real implication there is how is it supporting the business is different.

Jordan Martin: [17:19] No I think you're a hundred percent right I think that I think that we're this

you know where I think that we get into a bit of a mix-up is different differentiation between Technologies and the application of those Technologies

so we have I mean I've had this conversation with Russ quite a lot Russ white is a big advocate for the idea that there's like there's no such thing as a service provider Network there's no such thing as an Enterprise Network there's just Networks,

and I would take that just a little bit further and I'm always hesitant to ever extend or take away from something that Russ says because he's a brilliantly smart guy right but I don't completely agree with that statement and what I don't

where I do agree and where I think if we just added one word and that's networking Technologies

so there's no such thing as a service provider networking technology there's no such thing as an Enterprise Network Technology so

often times I use an example to help make it clear just in case someone doesn't you know doesn't fill in the blanks for themselves we see something like mpls something we've used traditional and I'm not talking about mpls like me consuming an mpls service I'm talking about mpls like I'm adding tags to my traffic

to create segments across my win.

[18:21] Mpls is traditionally seen as a service provider technology but at the end of the day it wasn't built for service providers it was built to solve a,

it was built to maintain separation across a shared infrastructure which is a which is a problem that is universal and service providers,

but we're finding out is actually pretty common in Enterprises as well does that mean you should use mpls Maybe

it doesn't mean you absolutely should but you should not disqualify it simply because it is a service provider

which I think is right which is why what I think is the intent of what Russ says when he says those things so I don't think I'm going too far out of bounds from what he's trying to communicate but at the end of the day there is a difference

between a service provider Network Enterprise Network because the needs of the network are wildly different for the most.

Zig Zsiga: [19:09] Yeah I mean the reason why the networks are there are different right like that I mean one is the business technically right a service provider like,

the network is the business right that I mean if you don't have a functioning Network you don't have a business whereas Enterprise is an Enterprise organization the network is kind of,

enabling the business but it's not the business the applications or the other functions within the business are actually the business I'm thinking like like a SAS is the easiest one I can save you have a software-as-a-service right

that does your services and your applications reside on top of that Network that network has an issue those applications and services are affected but that doesn't mean the

is the business the network is a function of the business and it provides availability and all the all the you know networking design fundamentals and principles

High availability scalability that's the network provides to the application or service or whatever you want to call it resource I like to call it resource these days because there's so many different terms there's application and service and data and metadata,

so I try to call it just resources on the environment.

Jordan Martin: [20:12] I think that you know I have zero notes that reference Ross in what I want to talk about going to bring them up to times in a row so apparently Russ is on my mind but anyway.

Zig Zsiga: [20:23] We should have him on the show.

Jordan Martin: [20:25] Yeah probably just include them in the conversation then I would have to be really quiet because he's a he definitely made me have more to say about this I would but the the.

This idea that that there are networks or businesses where the network is not part of.

Part of their business not part of there.

Their differentiation so this is something that I actually vehement we disagree with the premise on so I'm really stepping off the platform here and that you know Russ advocates for the idea that there is a.

That that every business is an information business and that if you aren't information business that your network matters because information needs to be communicated and because of that you can differentiate your business from others because of your network.

And I get what he's saying but it's like there's just so many examples in my head of where that's not true and so like I don't know that if you're a plumber.

You're going to differentiate your plumbing services from other plumbing services because of your network.

[21:29] Now there might be there might be technology and so when I say that the way you deal with customers how you store customer information how you reach out to customers like your network is part of the chain.

That might allow you to differentiate but the Technologies used in the network the network design the network architecture of the thought that goes into it.

I don't know that you can really differentiate yourself of whether you're using eigrp or ospf or is or pgp and whether you're in a hub-and-spoke topology versus a full mesh versus apart like those decisions don't equate

to me two things that would differentiate one plumber from another,

but I do think that the line goes a lot further down than what people have considered I think that there is opportunities for the network to play a critical role in business in a lot of businesses that don't take advantage of that.

And so I do think that there's a lot of businesses who sit in the middle here.

[22:19] Who I think just go along with whatever the white paper design is whatever the best practices that's communicated to them is where the reality is if they would put some engineering time into thinking about how they utilize their Network they might find some ways to beat their competitors.

Right and I think and I think that so I'm not sure where I sit on the Spectrum I am not so far as Ross is to say that there is no Spectrum

that every business is an information business and that and that everybody can differentiate their business with their Network I think that the line is a lot lower.

Down the Spectrum it's not just high in service providers who can differentiate themselves from other service providers,

and it's not just people who like the good example here is like a shipping company someone who ships has to track their stuff and something else there's all kinds of like there's all kinds of disparate information systems and if you could combine them.

Into one fundamental system there could be a differentiator there is one that makes sense to me my question is that your typical Enterprise where they're using the network for email or using the information for to communicate stuff back and forth between a web app and databases and things like that

I don't know that the network.

Can really provide them a differentiated value but I think that there's an opportunity there to explore in ways that we've never even looked at it and the more that we become dependent on information the more the true that becomes.

Zig Zsiga: [23:36] So I like a lot of what you just said and I do like what rice Russ says and this isn't supposed to be like a.

Jordan Martin: [23:42] Yeah I mean we could just call this the rust white show yeah we're going to argue with Russ.

Zig Zsiga: [23:46] Like I actually really liked what Ross says now I think we had to put that in context a little bit right Russ is a very very smart person and he's been doing this a lot longer than we have and I think.

Jordan Martin: [23:57] Combined I think.

Zig Zsiga: [23:57] Yeah come by here right let's just be we're being fully real here I would say that he sees what.

Everything is in a general sense.

And where things are going and I think that what his statements is fairly accurate - there's going to be things that aren't putting in that rule right there's going to be things like you said a plumber or maybe an art Carpenter or I don't know what else right there's going to be things that aren't technical aren't.

ITR aren't data or you know whatever the wording you leverage I can't remember but I think his comment outside of that is saying that.

All all,

infrastructure all information sharing all information networks right all information companies that rely on data and the simplest form,

that Network can become that that kind of conduit that that function to help you become better as a business the Streamline things or whatever the word you want to use and I think his comment is more about that

and where things could go or where things should go but not necessarily reality for these organizations I mean the reality is that.

[25:05] Businesses don't even understand the network is in some cases they they it's a cost center to them right it's not.

A business enabler right it's not helping the business it's not changing the you know we've all been the business or changing the business in some places it is right some of the senior leadership in that business are making large changes because

they've actually elevated the network right and in so I'm going to go on a ramble or example as I like to call it a zig ramble.

Jordan Martin: [25:34] Example nice do it.

Zig Zsiga: [25:35] Example right so I think if you go back like 10 years ago 15 years ago you'll see a lot of companies that elevated application teams,

so that term is anything application developers software teams like I worked at a few companies where we had,

a dedicated application team and they had a seat at the table and the network team where the infrastructure team never had a seat at the table we were always like.

The guys were added sorry say guys but the team that was added after the fact right we were added once a decision was made and now it's on us to figure it out I think what is happening here with all of this what we're talking about with the network is,

now the infrastructure team the IT team as a whole is getting a seat at the table because the businesses are starting to realize how imperative,

all of it is not just networking right it's everything right and it all plays together especially when we get into like a zero trust architecture or enterprise-wide architecture and business architecture it all

it all plays together and that's that's the end of my ramble so.

Jordan Martin: [26:36] I agree I agree to a certain point I think that there's still a lot of organizations were network and infrastructure specifically are still not having a seat at the table and I think there's a there's a lot of reasons for that.

But I think that I think that we're seeing it more often and I think a lot of the reason I mean just to be a you know here comes my cynical side a little bit infrastructure is getting you see the table because they've kind of gotten in the way.

[27:03] And so we've seen this traditionally where you know the application team has streamlined at the point where they can have you know and like an MVP or a viable tests or first wrong product in measured in hours or days.

And then when you need networking resources its measured in such a long time that we have to get them in early because they're going to be the long pole in the tent.

That's holding up everything to make it happen I think as we shift around and are able to provide more value will deserve the seat at the table a little bit more.

Um but I think that there's a bigger Gap there I think it's worth talking about because you mentioned something about like being a cost center and so like this is something I've thought my entire my entire life is because I mean like if you live in Enterprise networking I'm guarantee you.

It's your either they're now or it's been the predominant you know example of your career.

Is that when you go for Budget or you go with an idea or you have something you want to do it's analyzed like a thousand times more than when somebody who's like a developer team wants to go try something or whatever you like is something someone who is again.

[28:11] Seen as a value to the organization rather than just a cost center.

[28:16] And I will start by saying this and I think you know some people will like this that's not all on the networking.

Team side right like there's definitely both sides have some room to grow here I think Executives have been resistant to understand the value of networks and I think that as that has happened.

They've not been open even to people you know making a genuine attempt to demonstrate it because they just don't understand what value it can provide to them as Plumbing.

And when his Plumbing you know you don't bring the plumber into the executive boardroom when decisions are made.

And that's just the way that it is but talking about the fact that data and specifically information can be a differentiator in businesses and we see that in applications well those applications have to communicate there's no single,

server application that exists and so the networking infrastructure team is part of that and the faster that they can respond you know the better it is and so there's some stuff that I think that networkers have to do.

To position themselves here that I think is something we've been largely resistant to do.

Right and the first thing I think we have to do and many Engineers see this as something dirty.

But it's a hundred percent critical in finding support for your networking initiatives and gaining respect in your organization and that is that you have to be a Salesman.

[29:35] So so people in sales they know how to frame their product which in our case here is the network that you have or the network that you want to build.

In terms that mean something to the business right like you're never going to make a sale as a Salesman if you can't.

Connect your product or the thing that it does to a problem that that organization is having they're not going to just throw money at you,

and guess what it's no different just because your team is internal so you have to be a salesman which means you have to be thinking about,

these things in terms of business value we've mentioned this several times we're meeting business objectives and the reason why Zig,

in I communicate this way is because both of us operate at a level within our organizations where we're constantly talking with Executives and decision-makers and people who think this way and we know what it takes,

right to be able to tie that piece of technology to the problem of the businesses having.

[30:36] Right so at the end of the day like this to me is the difference between an engineer an architect right an engineer knows all the knobs and no other levers they can configure like nobody's business they can apply this technology and do it well they can troubleshoot with the best of them.

Right but the architect is the one who's able.

To draw the line and say hey this is our business problem this is the thing we're trying to do here's the correct accumulation of Technologies.

And configurations and devices and all of the things that we need to give ourselves a good solid standing to meet,

this particular initiative or to solve this particular problem right and so you need somebody playing that role how many organizations have you been in that have no.

They have nobody who's in that role there's a big disconnect right between between the people who are who are deciding the initiatives.

In the people who are turning the knobs and middle management is one of the two.

It's not it's not a gap right like and I'm not picking on middle management here I'm just saying this is my experience middle management either an engineer who's been promoted.

[31:42] And is struggling to to you know get footing with the executive sign or it's an executive who's been placed over the top of an engineering team.

Who couldn't tell you anything that has people are doing but knows how to speak to the business and so like we need we does Bridge needs to be made and where that bridge is made.

There's success in positioning the network as an enabler of the business rather than just as a cost center.

[32:07] Right that's that's the big thing and I think the the second thing is is it's a communication problem right the second thing is we need to know our audience when we're talking to the business.

[32:17] Right we need to be able to speak their language and again where I point out the fact that this is a two-sided issue.

I think it's 20 21 it's fair to point out to our CEOs are ctOS our cios are cso's that they have to be able to speak.

No I don't expect them to be you know IE level competency in deploying routers.

Zig Zsiga: [32:40] Get on this man might get them command line go yeah.

Jordan Martin: [32:43] Right but when I when I say router or switch there I should not roll in the back of their head there are business is dependent upon this equipment.

And if you were talking about Vehicles their eyes don't roll in the back of their head,

if you're talking about you're talking about buildings or land their eyes don't roll in the back of their head guess what it infrastructure just as critical they got to know what it is so that's on them but.

We also need to speak their language we need to know you know what are the financial incentives for this company like cuz sometimes it's not just about the best tax sometimes about making the best decision,

with what our restraints are if we're hemorrhaging money because our business is failing.

Proposing the most expensive Solution on the markets not going to earn you respect,

but if you come in and say I recognize where we're at I think we can meet our needs with this it's not the most ideal solution but I'm trying to bridge the gap between where we're at and what I know we need they're going to listen to you.

And so some of its a communication component.

Zig Zsiga: [33:43] Yes I think there's a lot there right to unpack and I think there's a lot of points to everyone to take away so hopefully you all are taking that away as Network Engineers couple things that I would add as just

caveat some caveats additional information for myself so when you're in this position and

busy I'm sure most of us if not all of us will be in a position like this at some point where we have the technology we know the technology in and out and we love our technology if I go back 10 years ago 15 years ago I don't even know what when it was I remember talking to

a CIO at my company that I was working at and I remember him telling me you have to focus on the business is it.

You have to focus on the business and I would tell him know the business sucks I care about the technology I care about my.

Jordan Martin: [34:33] Engineered.

Zig Zsiga: [34:34] In zeros and my eigrp and my ospf my bgp I don't care about

the business and here now I'm telling you to care about the business right so so what I'm specifically saying here is you don't need to know everything about the business you don't need to know every language every term right but you need to know how,

to take your solution your Technical Solutions and explain the business impact and why the business needs that solution and then explain.

What would happen if they didn't get that solution.

What would happen to the business if they didn't get that Knack solution that network access control solution if they're you know having some sort of Regulatory Compliance and they need an axe solution.

To be compliant you have to talk to them and tell them in their speak at a high level.

They don't care if you're running Cisco is or whatever other nak Solutions out there 82 don't want to ax or peep into my Shop version 2 they don't care about that they don't need that they need to know what is the impact to the business to them,

um to stay in they stay afloat to stay a business to stay productive and profitable.

Um and then my next thing on all of that and I'm going to miss points but so that was that like you got to be able to tell the business the why the impact but then also.

You have to build trust with your Executives and it's not going to be easy it's I mean.

Jordan Martin: [35:59] Hundred percent.

Zig Zsiga: [36:00] It's not going to be a quick process right you're going to get an organization and I've been there I'm sure Jordans been there and that's the whole point like the executive team hates it

like they hate it and the application development team

they asked us for new things and we said it's going to take three months they said screw you we're going to the cloud and we're going to go instantiate our application the cloud today because we can do that with a cloud right AWS or Azure or whatever right.

Then there's associated with bad things that happen based on that cost and what not they hit the business but the point I'm trying to make is.

You have to build the trust right you have to show them the value and build that trust with executive staff and that trust is going to get you in the door that trust is going to get you to tell them why they need things.

Jordan Martin: [36:47] So it's like you're reading my notes it's hilarious because yeah because and know it's true so trust is one of those critical things the amount of times.

Like this is just so common for me when I've gone into an organization as a consultant.

And I'm going in for a particular project or particular initiative like obviously you know they just call us to come in and sit down and have a conversation the calls because they want something

right so you go when you start having conversations you know you sit down and everybody talks together and then you go and you spend some time with the engineering team to kind of have an understanding of what is there.

[37:23] I made it a habit that would ask the engineering team what are things that you're trying to get done right now.

That are not getting any footing whatsoever because you know what would happen if I set it.

[37:36] It would happen and it wasn't so that like we would get you no more money or whatever I was actually trying to look out for these teams because they had not built.

That trust and they actually needed things done and so.

Me as a consultant I come in with immediate trust because that's what you're paying hundreds of dollars an hour for me to be in there there's an inherent trust and so like if I look at that and you say oh you're trying to do that and the at and I look at your network and I say absolutely then he needs to be done,

and I can just you know put my finger on the scale a little bit and mention that maybe you should start considering this.

It does a couple of things well one is a consultant helps build rapport with an engineering team so that's a good strategy if you have our guy you know like if you're going in or if you work at a vendor right like if you can help them get something done that they need done because,

there's an inherent level of trust with your relationship and obviously don't violate that drops that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is if they have a good thing that they want.

[38:30] And there is not getting the traction you can you can help you know free things up but but the other side of it is I think that there's just so much of this lack of communication.

And this lack of trust between,

Executives and whatever you mentioned the cloud the cloud is great example let's talk about the cloud example because this was the thing so this was you know Shadow Whitey was another word that was that was used for this idea that these organization said okay I can go to the business.

And the business will be all in on the idea the executives are not going to be the one who stands in the way I'm going to get the funding that I need but then I'm going to send it to my it organization and it's going to take them six months.

To deliver something that I consider relatively easy.

[39:10] Whereas I can go and I can pay for a SAS application or I can go and I can build something in you know infrastructure-as-a-service whether that's Amazon or Azure or wherever and I can have this thing up and running in a week.

And so I have the choice of doing it internally or I have the choice of going and doing it my own way.

In companies without discipline and without you know things in place to stop that from happening it happened in a big way now,

there's a couple of things that happen here one is a lack of trust because people didn't understand why it was taking all that time some of it is just a complete lack of being responsive to the business on,

it side that's your own fault like you need to be better at being responsive to the business but also some of it is.

The business doesn't understand the value of what you're doing in that six months right and so what we've learned then is we have all the shadow it and all of a sudden we go we have an audit,

and someone comes to the how are you protecting your traffic to your apps and the IT infrastructure team puts out this beautiful map of all of the security components and all of the things that they're looking at

and then the auditor goes well we just talked to this team over here and they have an application at AWS and the secure and the team is sitting there like with their hands up in the air like.

[40:24] I had no idea and then you find out that application has been talking to some sort of internal

database or you know pulling some sort of database out to syncing it out there and there's like all of these things that I've seen over and over and over again because of this lack of trust now if the business understood the value of that security posture.

If they understood the risk as you said like this is what happens if we don't have it and then you say.

But because of that it takes x amount of time longer to execute tasks than if we just do them without this.

Then the business has some context about why it's taking you longer and rather than just seeing you as so then we use a bump in the road to accomplishing a goal,

they say you're looking out for the Strategic initiatives and interests of this company by securing our data.

By ensuring that we have redundant paths making sure that we have resiliency and all of these things that are important to us.

[41:18] But that obviously comes at a cautious like anything else and so you can have it you can have a business value conversation with your Executives if you have trust.

But if you just do it if you're just if you're just the person who's in the way or if you can't speak their language or all the things that we've mentioned in the past 15 minutes which by the way is like

my guess anywhere between 75 and 85 percent if I had to put a number on it of organizations that are in this state,

where the it teams do not have the trust of the executive team not to a degree where they're at the table all the time it is not that common is becoming more common.

It's becoming more common because we have convergence and all the other things that are happening but it's not all that common and so these are things that we need to do,

because otherwise you end up in these projects we're now all of a sudden we have to all of a sudden we have to reclaim all this stuff that's in AWS or you know in 27 different places I went to figure out how to bring it all back together and the companies are spending a lot more.

To do the work 3 4 times how many times it takes.

Zig Zsiga: [42:17] Well then you get the bill you get the cloud Bill to right and they're using the wrong data store or database.

Jordan Martin: [42:22] How clouds always cheaper Zig what are you talking about it's just so much easier just throw in the cloud it's so much cheaper.

Zig Zsiga: [42:28] It's so much easier for the application team to wash their hands of it and then it you know goes in the cloud and they don't they don't remember about that bill that they're not paying right now and they go 30 30 days or 3 months and then they get that bill so and then I've been in instances where that bill goes to it.

Like what is this.

Jordan Martin: [42:44] Oh yeah.

Zig Zsiga: [42:45] They're like well that's cloud like your network it's got IP's it's yours and no this is this is the application team they did this we don't have anything in the cloud.

So I think this is like you said this is where most probably Enterprises are at right they're not 80 % of a percent I don't know the right number right because I don't talk to.

Jordan Martin: [43:05] Yeah I'm throwing I'm picking numbers out of my hat but you know like the it's based off of a lot of experience so I'm probably not that far off.

Zig Zsiga: [43:12] No I would agree right I would definitely agree and I do see people like they go to the cloud because,

initially the application teams like yes that's what we're going to do and then within six months everything's back on Prem and then you as the network Team Network architect are trying to figure everything out again like you're it now you're you know working nights and weekends to make it happen,

and you're trying to figure it all out and telling you it's real I've been there no,

so some of the cases where it takes forever to build something out like if development team has a new application or whatever you know the reason it takes forever is because we don't have the resources like in the

my experience we don't have the storage and we don't have the compute and we have to go get the money so it's there's a process to get new money process the order equipment get it

you know shipped delivered racked configured all the stuff that you would normally do tested on boarded and then once it's,

actually running then you can give it to the application team will that stuff doesn't happen overnight it doesn't just poof and it's up and running.

That's not how it.

Jordan Martin: [44:13] No but I mean.

This is where cloud has its value right so you know when you talk about this from an organizational standpoint like if you really are working towards you know the business objectives and you recognize the fact that you run a lean infrastructure

as in you don't maintain a lot of extra capacity to meet immediate needs

then you need to be sitting down with your Executives and talking about cloud and say Yes ramp up on cloud is more expensive data transferring out of cloud is expensive there's a lot of things that cost more money but what you get is agility

so why don't we build an infrastructure that gives us the tools that we need to secure it so that when this request comes in we can

initially Deploy on Cloud for testing and validation make sure that everything works the way that we want it to and then we can make a decision.

You know at the beginning of this project like where do we want this thing to ultimately live and so this is now you showing up and saying I'm going to give you options,

I can give you the quick option I can give you the agile option we can build an infrastructure to do this where we don't have to wait for sourcing Hardware so we can run lean.

That's fine like it's completely understandable to want to run lean but then you have to have your outlet for quick response or you need your Executives on board to understand that all projects take a long time.

Zig Zsiga: [45:26] You need to finding right need buy-in for the funding of that right and having that that structure and

y'all floating if you're using a cloud provider temporarily or if you're building your own private Cloud environment right like internally but then eventually you're going to hit those thresholds and you need to you need to get the replacement Hardware or the per placements resources so that

the executive staff needs to be on board right they need to be on board with this and understand what's going to happen if you build a new application new service whatever.

You have to understand what the implications are there for sure.

Jordan Martin: [45:59] So I'm laughing internally because the post-mortem on the slack outage.

That happened when everybody went back to work I don't know if you've read that yet but so you know everyone comes back to work after the new year and and slack goes out day one the January 4th I think it was or what.

Whatever that Monday was and and like so many people have become so dependent on slack for communication internally that

it stops business when it's not there for a lot of people and,

you know a lot of people pointed fingers at slack to begin with but it turns out and slack still own some responsibility in this I'm not trying to take that away but it turns out it was limitations in the cloud and so to me this is Ultimate validation that cloud really is just someone else's computer

and that the idea of infinite scalability is laughable.

Obviously their scalability is immense but you have to understand I mean this is more just a design consideration right you have to understand what the limits even of cloud are

and by the way all you need more Transit Gateway resources that doesn't come up at a snap of the fingers and so slack try to add like

like a thousand plus servers all at once to one region and turns out Transit Gateway doesn't scale that fast that quick so so they were they were down for quite a while so while that the problem was somewhat Amazon's it was Amazon's capability to scale.

[47:15] And again keep in mind that if we were trying to do this in the Enterprise that type of scalability would take months we're talking about them taking hours but that's a whole other thing but slack in there and their consideration

they you know they hadn't considered that so it's interesting use case I'm laughing because we say use that for the for the high agility,

Don't Have To Source Hardware well you can blow that up to if you're get to a particular size.

Zig Zsiga: [47:37] Well I mean it again and I think he got a boil all back down to what I call business priorities and what are your priorities and is is every of the every,

this is his decision that you're making design decision networking decision purchasing decision is it mapping to one of those business priorities and there's a whole framework right there's priorities there's drivers there's outcomes there's capabilities and there's eventually Solutions and I'm not trying to get into a weeds of what,

I would call it business architecture Enterprise architecture and what I've turned is called consultative leadership but the whole point is that there's a reason why you do everything

there has to be a reason and it has to tie back to the business right so if for me if that's the if that's the only thing that's taken away out of this show today is that will Jordan's great so that should be number one right Jordans awesome Network like this awesome.

But is that everything needs to be tied back to the business

right we're going to bridge the technology in the business we're going to help with that even if your network engineer Network design a network architect you're going to help right part of that

that's the drill right you're going to bridge technology in business over your career that's what you're going to do but it comes back every decision you make has to come back

to the business I did not know that so just sorry for I did not know that.

Jordan Martin: [48:53] No I mean that's true like so when I started that was something I definitely had never even considered right looked at technology as this is fun because it's technology this is fun because you know well you know my Origins were

exploring some of the darker color hats of security when I was a kid sitting in my you know in my bedroom at home when I was a teenager just loving technology and loving understand how it works and loving the knobs and the things and be able to make it

do what what I wanted to do and that was the fun but the reality is is that when you make it a career just like so many other things the career component

changes the dynamic it's no longer a hobby it's no longer about the technology it's about it's about you know why why why is someone writing you a check for this,

are they any of the day why is someone writing you a check to do this and the writing you a check because they need technology to meet their business needs and so I'm going to sum up what you just said and kind of just one sentence and that is it infrastructure should be strategic.

Every decision is.

Zig Zsiga: [49:47] Hundred percent I love it I love that that's that's great that's awesome and that's awesome.

Jordan Martin: [49:54] There's your bumper sticker.

Zig Zsiga: [49:55] Yeah that's a bumper sticker we're going to just paste it's going to go right on my forehead.

We hit every note man I know we've gone around right I think we've hit every note so I would kind of just open it up do you have any last minute,

suggestions recommendation I kind of just Tee It Up like that so recommendations any anything for the network Engineers that are out there today that are listening.

Jordan Martin: [50:19] So I'll get there in a second I think there's one more I think just general idea that I've kind of

I continue to consider and Ponder this and I've yet to find it to not be true and I find that network engineering is splitting one of two ways right we see we're seeing a bifurcation in our industry

this conversation is relevant.

[50:39] To everybody where the network matters and so we had this conversation about before where is the network a differentiator this conversation was wholly irrelevant,

to the plumber office who doesn't care about design right and so what we're seeing and I don't want to pick on it because it's not necessarily wrong but where we pick we look at something like Cisco Meraki.

All right Cisco Meraki has a very prescribed way of doing networking and if you follow their prescription it's going to work incredibly well.

[51:06] But you're never going to differentiate yourself you know what I'm saying it's just going to be the solution that's going to maybe answer some of the questions you have give you the fundamental,

components that that you need to do it but you're never going to differentiate yourself because they give you a prescription on how to build your network

and so in this I think there are companies that are like the Meraki companies again not picking on them I think it's completely legitimate if you're a plumber's office that's all you need

right and then there's the company's where it can be differentiator in which case you need this architecture way of thinking you need to be strategic you need to be doing the things that we've just spent the past I don't know 40 some odd minutes now 50-plus talking about

um right to talk about you know how to be strategic how to partner with the executives.

In our organization so that they understand what value we bring how to communicate well with them

how to tie what you're doing to two business priorities like all that stuff is critically important if you sit in that other container and that other container is getting bigger by the year,

right like the the numbers of places where information is critical and key as part of their business and their strategy and the way that they go forward and bring their products and services and everything else to Market.

You need to be thinking about these things.

Zig Zsiga: [52:22] Yeah so now I'm going to add something right because that's what happens we have these these back and forth so you know I agree with everything you said right like but I would add additional statement here that.

[52:34] The network is becoming an unstated requirement and I can't emphasize that enough it's something I've been saying for a while the network is becoming an unstated requirement

what do I mean by that your company is your businesses are not going to tell you what level of availability scalability flexibility reliability resiliency whatever whatever fundamental and principal Network design and

you know term you want to throw out there they're not going to come out and tell you that anymore like nine times out of 10 if not more than that,

you as a network engineer as its Network designer as Network architect are going to have to figure that out you're going to have to understand the business

understand those requirements those constraints those drivers,

and then associate whatever level of availability whatever level of resiliency that you can.

The correct metrics that was metrics being cost resources time Etc right

the cost might be a huge factor maybe you only have a million dollars versus if you wanted to do dissolution you wanted to do we need to 5 million dollars right so you only have a million dollars you get to do something less

less preferred but still hit the mark right you still have to hit the availability Mark the scalability marks right but again the clear thing is that.

These the business isn't telling you what those are anymore you have to actually dig in ask the questions and figure out what those levels are.

[53:56] And I'll end with again a network isn't unstated requirement think of Netflix think of.

Every business that has a network today is going to start becoming an unstated.

Jordan Martin: [54:07] Just try to imagine your business without one.

Zig Zsiga: [54:10] Exactly right what.

Jordan Martin: [54:11] If you want if you want to

whether or not it's important you know imagine your business without one how long can they live how long will they survive without one is it is it you know because most of them would most people would answer that I think if you asked X Executives I think this is changing they would say hours but the reality is as minutes.

Like they start feeling pain like the moment that it's not available to them and so so yeah it is an unstated requirement that's absolutely true.

Zig Zsiga: [54:35] So I have some customers that will say Hey you know so think of think of analog phones.

I mean I don't think any most of us pray don't have those right we had a an analog phone line in the house when I was growing up right I do not remember that phone line never not working if I picked up that phone I got a dial tone,

right it worked I don't know maybe it didn't work it sometimes but I don't remember it not working right.

It was very rare will transition transition that to VoIP running on networks and how often do use it does a VoIP system go down I've had customers say my VoIP system should just be like my analog system it should never go down.

Like okay,

that tells you right there what level availability you need I mean I tell you what level of resiliency and reliability those are the kind of things that you have to get out of your your organization your customers depending on where you work right if you were going to VAR your be talking to customers you got to get that information out of them.

Jordan Martin: [55:29] Very true.

Zig Zsiga: [55:31] All right so back to that question I asked before our last little rant right what recommendations if any would you give to everyone listening go ahead.

Jordan Martin: [55:43] So I you know it's going to sound a little bit self-serving but I'm going to tell you

conversations like this are incredibly valuable and so I just want to share some of the not to self-promote even more but the idea of why started Network Collective is because I wanted to extract these types of conversations that I was having it conferences

and I was having with people that I met in person in the industry and make them public and so the only reason why I bring this up is I think that consuming conversations like this is valuable because it gives you perspective,

you're getting to learn from somebody else who's lived through a different set of experiences you only know what you know and so all that to say if you listen to this you probably already subscribed to zigbits don't you need

right and I'm not even talking to myself there are so many great content creators who are out there who trying to help give you for a lot of them for free.

[56:32] Their perspective and experience so you can grow as an engineer and so if you're like the grizzled senior guy you can choose whether or not you listen to this or not because you know we you could have been on this conversation too and contributed as much as either of us but if you're coming up in your career,

surround yourself with smart people listen to stuff like this that's really does sound self-serving now Anna,

myself not only is Network Collective is good but me as a smart person like this is but if you get the idea listen to part people have a lot of experience because I think that there was one thing that I was missing

early in my career I didn't have those perspectives and I think it's load my career down a bit like you can you can get an extra step ahead by learning from others who have taken the path before you and so it's cool it's cool that you're listening to this but continued I guess is really what I'm saying.

Zig Zsiga: [57:16] Also I would just say like this informations important I think and I would highlight a whole bunch of things in a minute so I will.

This is going to save you from making mistakes right and it's going to save you time it's going to save you money and going to save you headaches,

like yeah there's a whole bunch right hearing what people talk about on these shows like Today's Show like this show is going to save you so much yeah it's an hour 30 minutes whatever it is an hour and a half right I mean these shows Network Collective packet pushers

art of network engineering if you don't know that one

if we follow that one to right that one's fairly new started just last year and they've got a huge following now mine right obviously zigbits but your again if you're listening now you're probably already following it,

but there's.

Jordan Martin: [58:08] Admit six.

Zig Zsiga: [58:09] Yeah and it's sick.

Jordan Martin: [58:09] Style like and there's and there's obviously there's too much to consume I mean just to be honest like you don't need to consume absolutely everything from absolutely everyone except number Collective you need to listen.

Zig Zsiga: [58:18] Hahaha.

Jordan Martin: [58:18] Single episode from them but but no like you don't need to consume every single one from for every single thing from every single one but make it part of your regular routine because it will make you a better engineer.

Zig Zsiga: [58:27] Yeah I would just say pick out what makes sense to you write what you feel is interesting and what's going to benefit you and pick out and focus on that it's just too much to consume that's to truth right,

everyone's doing a podcast episode every week and it's 52 weeks a year I mean 52 new shows for my show and if you add it up yeah for five shows I just listed I mean that's a lot of episodes to listen to.

Jordan Martin: [58:49] It is,

used to be a lot easier right like when we all were commuting and we all do it something that was that was what I did is I was out of your listen to audio books or listen to podcast as I commuted I work from home for the most part but I traveled so when I commuted like I'd have a backlog and,

like I'm gonna go jump on a plane I'm going to fly across the country I've got many hours like we should you know use this time to consume stuff and that's been away for the past year or so I've actually had to be super intentional about trying to get back into that

and listening stuff because my audio consumption dropped way down and I know did for everybody else because I watch my numbers and network like did everyone else slow down to but uh

but no it's you know it's it's one of those things that you know even for me I mean I've been doing like I said at the top of the show doing this for 20 years I still listen

and I listened because there's value I listened because there's experience that I can extract and it makes me smarter even though I've been doing this as long as I have.

Zig Zsiga: [59:41] Yeah yeah we just said it we just you know just set it so hey Jordan man I appreciate you buddy got you on the show finally you know we got to have you back soon though that's my opinion I got to get you back we gotta find other topic.

Jordan Martin: [59:53] Absolutely I love this man like all the pressures off of me I don't have to manage the the hosting stuff I don't have to manage the flow like like it you wouldn't think it would be that difficult and it's really not so I'm not trying to aggrandize it but it was like just sitting here.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:06] Hey it is difficult man it's a lot of work over here just.

Jordan Martin: [1:00:10] Like but it's just nice to kind of be like hey like I get to just get to share my opinion that's this is this is new this is something I haven't done in a long time so I will I'm going to take you up on that because I enjoy this it's a nice it's nice release valve right of not having to,

to be responsible for everything.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:25] It's the fun stop you know it's the fun stuff it's a it's why we do what we do I mean the podcast stuff on the side doing the hosting and everything is a lot of work it's a lot of work man.

Jordan Martin: [1:00:33] It's all the back stuff it's not the actual recorded its Alma.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:36] It's all the back.

Jordan Martin: [1:00:37] German whatever and you're exhausted by the time you get there.

Zig Zsiga: [1:00:39] Yeah yeah a one last thing where can people find you on the interwebs.

Jordan Martin: [1:00:43] Yeah so I'm I'm connected on social media I'm not hard to find so I'm at besiege or do on Twitter filling in for me at Network collect if it's at night Collective PC on Twitter,

that's where I have most of my ad hoc conversation so if you're on Twitter please come follow me and actually talk to me like

don't just follow me and then like ignore me because I would like to have conversations I love engaging with Engineers about engineering stuff or whatever I have some other hobbies to so we can we can talk about that stuff,

you can find,

Network collectively mentioned it before Network likes of.com we're on YouTube with our live streams will actually wear everywhere with our live stream you can find us on Twitch you can find us on Facebook you can find us all those places where ever you consume your life streams where they're I don't know that that's a good decision that may be changing

um but it's there so so we'd love to have anyone who wants to come join us it's Wednesdays at 8:00 p.m. Eastern

so if you're you know that stuff for Europe

but here in the US if you want to come join us for a live stream to be awesome we do lots of fun games talk about networking stuff do demos that kind of stuff.

And then and then yeah I'm on LinkedIn as well so you can find me there like wherever like I mean if there's a social network I'm probably on it I'm already on clubhouse are you in clubhouse you get sick.

Zig Zsiga: [1:01:53] I am I'm on the waiting list I didn't get a spot though so.

Jordan Martin: [1:01:58] Do I need to send you an invite.

Zig Zsiga: [1:01:59] Yeah if you want to send me invite sure no I gotta I gotta.

Jordan Martin: [1:02:01] Got an invite yeah you got to show me which email you want to let me show you invited but I'm not like I'm on there I don't know how I'm going to use it for anything but.

Zig Zsiga: [1:02:07] Right I reserve my name and I was like I got zsiga done.

Jordan Martin: [1:02:11] And I got a notification of the day an email that someone had followed me on Elmo,

don't know if you remember Allah it was all the hype like two or three years ago super exclusive had to get invites and then it just never went anywhere I'm like oh apparently that account still out there so if you're on a low and still using it you can find me there.

Zig Zsiga: [1:02:30] Alright well just for you're not listening I will have all of Jordans links in the show notes and I'll also have all of network Collective links in the show notes so you can go you can go follow

Jordan and network Collective and Tony over there as well you know jump in there slack like and talk like he said like there's an open door policy here like talk say hi have a conversation don't feel scared or or any of those

impossible and pastures syndrome feelings or whatever just talk to us like that's that's have a conversation.

Jordan once again I appreciate you man thanks so much I had a lot of fun and until next time I will talk to you soon buddy.

Jordan Martin: [1:03:07] Alright sounds good thanks for having me on.

Zig Zsiga: [1:03:09] Hey friends nerds geeks and ziglets that's going to close out today's episode of the zigbits network design podcast where we highlighted why we build a networks and network engineering with Jordan Martin from Network,

make sure you follow Jordan and network Collective on Twitter Facebook LinkedIn to see what else he's working on today's show notes,

we'll be at zigbits dot tax / 80 in all relative resources and links will be on that page so you can access them super quick and easy

hey teach you to know we're doing another awesome outstanding giveaway this month this month we are focused on Automation programmability and so our zigbits February 20 21 giveaway

bundle includes definite devops python devdutt Associates and so much more.

To see all of the specific details of this giveaway and to get yourself entered into it simply go to zigbits dot text / giveaway.

[1:04:04] Now remember this will be the link for all of our zigbits giveaways moving forward if there is something you would like us to give away if you have an ideas something that you want to see let us know when you're starting to plan our March April and May giveaway items right now

if you want to have a live Network design conversation right now today hey you could join the zigbits Discord community,

there are a ton of Highly skilled experts ready to help you with your network design questions that we can jump on whiteboards and

audio calls and really just kind of talk about design again this is a

a community-based Discord Channel server just for this community it's free you can join it and have live conversations with me and federal Network designers and will help you every way we can

hey that link to that Discord is a zigbits DOT Text slash Discord,

if you didn't know we are creating a network design course if you want to hear more about this course and and the weekly status updates that we send out every week.

[1:04:58] You can join the mail at the email list at zigbits dot text last Network design all one work now remember this is a vendor agnostic certification agnostic course and like I always say

what does that truly mean what does agnostic truly mean that means it's not tied specifically to a vendor or a certification

it can be used for those of course but it's not specifically tied to those and that's the benefit of this course again if you want to hear more about that course it get those weekly emails knowing what we're doing you can go to zigbits dot Text slash network design to sign up to the email list

hey friends if you liked today's episode

if it inspired you resonated something within you or provided a level of real world context let me know you can find zigbits on all of the social that's Twitter LinkedIn and Facebook just by searching for zigbits and we'll have the links in the show notes

you can also send me an email at Zig at zigbits. Tech as always I appreciate you and thank you for listening don't forget to attack your goals

attack the day attack your life and make progress my friends until next time bye for now.